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The CHAIRMAN. What do you pay now; what is the annual payment?

Mr. NEWTON. I do not know.

The CHAIRMAN. You were given $8,000 about a year ago.

Mr. NEWTON. I do not remember about that. At any rate, this is the amount that is necessary to carry it ahead.

The CHAIRMAN. We should like to know what it is.

Mr. NEWTON. If the amount appropriated is not sufficient to carry through

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Suppose we think you are paying too much rent, we can never tell unless we know how much you are actually paying. Please send us a statement of the terms of the arrangement you have for facilities there, with the payments to be made, and the accommodations received.

Mr. NEWTON. Very well.


The CHAIRMAN. The next item is:

Millersburg, Ohio, post office (site): For completion under the present limit of cost, $500.

Mr. NEWTON. The amount is insufficient to secure the site there. The CHAIRMAN. This is the price agreed on, and is within the limit, is it not?

Mr. NEWTON. Yes, sir; in most cases we have obtained sites within the limit.

The CHAIRMAN. This is to make up the balance of an agreed price, which is within the authority?

Mr. NEWTON. Yes, sir.


The CHAIRMAN. The next item is:

New York, N. Y., customhouse: For changes, remodeling, repairs, new vaults, etc., $35,000.

Mr. NEWTON. The New York customhouse has always been rather badly arranged, so far as space is concerned. There has not been an economical arrangement of the space. By a careful study of all the conditions, we have worked out a plan whereby we can save or release a great deal of additional space and make room for the additional force that must be put to work there in the different departments. It affects a saving amounting to about $60,000 a year; that is, in additional space. In the Internal Revenue Bureau we have got to put a very large number of clerks at work on account of the revenue bill. These changes give a more economical grouping of the clerks. For example, in the customs service, a man coming in from the outside to do business must start on the first floor, go up to the top floor, and then come down again, etc. We are effecting a better grouping of the activities by making changes on the various floors, particularly the first floor.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us what you will do to supply space for 300 additional employees.

Mr. NEWTON. They are consolidated.

The CHAIRMAN. I know. What changes are to be made to make it possible to provide accommodations for 300 additional employees? Mr. NEWTON. I do not know as to the detailed physical changes. Mr. SIMON. The pivotal point in the whole thing is the InternalRevenue Bureau, which is very short of space. We are going to take them from the first floor up to the sixth floor and throw in the corridors up there so that they may be used for the public to transact business.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any of the details of this plan here?
Mr. SIMON. Yes, sir; I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. Here is a building that cost over $3,000,000, and you say for $35,000 you can provide room for 300 additional employees. We should like to know something about that.

Mr. SIMON. Here is the pivotal point. This space, from there [indicating] down to there [indicating].

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). On what floor?

Mr. SIMON. The sixth floor. The idea is by making this change and removing this screen work the public does not have to come in there [indicating]. At present they use the doors of the various offices. There is a screen which takes up 6 or 7 or 8 feet of public space inside here [indicating]. The idea is to give the clerks all this space [indicating] by puncturing the walls and simply making that screen work. That provides very much space for the employees. That is one thing.

The CHAIRMAN. How much additional space will that provide?

Mr. SIMON. I can not state accurately in square feet, but quite a little. The other points were these: That with the consolidation of the various customs bureaus that is proposed and of other bureaus in the building, so that the various customs people will get together and the various internal-revenue people will get together, you do not, as Mr. Newton has said, have to go from one place to another, intermingling in a way.

The CHAIRMAN. A few years ago when Congress was asked for money to rent certain offices it was stated that it was not possible to provide any space in this building at all. Now it is stated that space for 300 additional employees can be provided. We should have some very definite information about that. Three hundred people is an army of employees. We will have to have some information.

Mr. SIMON. It is because of the consolidation that is possible when you correlate these different bureaus, that is the vital thing, and get the proper bureaus close to each other so that they can work with some advantage and conserve the space that they have. Now, they have space here [indicating], here [indicating], and there [indicating].

Mr. NEWTON. The arrangement of the old building was not economical.

The CHAIRMAN. It is a new building-do not call it an old building.

Mr. NEWTON. A new building. Like a good many of the old buildings, perhaps, as much attention was given to its architectural appearance as to the economy of space. As I understand, there are some very important changes on the first floor to economize space.

Mr. SIMON. Yes, sir. Here is one point. On the third floor there is an immense room, extending the whole of the back of the building, cut up into little cubby holes by screen work, so that these people can have private offices. As soon as you begin to do that, you lose space. We wipe out that whole thing of every little man having a private office and we put these desks together and let them get down to business.

The CHAIRMAN. When you speak of accommodating 300 additional employees in a building, according to the estimates that we get when you want to rent space, it would take about 120,000 square feet.

Mr. NEWTON. There is a great deal of space in the building, of course, on the various floors.

The CHAIRMAN. We have authorized the renting of outside space upon the absolute positive representation that it was not possible to put any additional employees in this building.

Mr. NEWTON. It was not, under old conditions.

The CHAIRMAN. We should have some definite statement as to what you propose to do.

Mr. NEWTON. How do you want it?

The CHAIRMAN. I should like to have you show me.

Mr. NEWTON. We can furnish you with the plans of the different floors and just what changes are to be made.

The CHAIRMAN. What offices are down in the old building of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing?

Mr. NEWTON. All the auditors except the Auditor for the Post Office Department and the Auditor for the War Department. The CHAIRMAN. How many employees have you down there? Mr. NEWTON. I do not know.

Mr. SIMON. Here is one item which might possibly explain further. In the middle of this building is a rotunda.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you intend to fill that up?

Mr. SIMON. NO. The clerks are there [indicating] and there [indicating]. The idea is to have the clerks in the middle and to let the public go around there [indicating], just as they do in modern


The CHAIRMAN. Is not that arranged like a banking institution? Mr. SIMON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. With a desk and a rail, where the public comes in? Mr. SIMON. Yes, sir; right through the middle.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you intend to rip that up?

Mr. SIMON. Nothing but a marble counter.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a fine marble counter to be ripped up?
Mr. SIMON. And reverse it.

Mr. NEWTON. It is intended to use the same marble again.

The CHAIRMAN. We should have some information. The only thing about that building, if it has any advantage, it is supposed to have some architectural beauty, and now you propose to go in and demolish what are considered to be some of the best features. I do not know whether you will or not.

Mr. WETMORE. This appropriation is sufficient to do this work in such a way as not to mar the architectural harmony of the building at all.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know what you are going to do. As you know, we have not had very much satisfaction with the estimates of what can be done with the money after buildings have been started. Mr. WETMORE. I think we have been very successful in getting through within the amounts and making savings besides.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee wants more information as to what you are going to do.

Mr. NEWTON. Do you want the blue prints

The CHAIRMAN. We want to know something definite about what you are going to do. Here is practically a new building that cost $3,000,000 and the site cost a lot more money, and you state now that for $35,000 you can provide accommodations for 300 additional employees.

Mr. SIMON. Here is another thing. This is the cashier's office [indicating]. You come into this lobby from Bowling Green. The public space is a great big space like that [indicating]. The idea is to cut this space [indicating] down to what the public really needs and throw this into the clerks.

Mr. NEWTON. As I understand, this is saving waste space and it is making available and usable a lot of space in the building without marring the architectural beauty of the building.

Mr. CANNON. As I understand, for $35,000 you can rearrange the floor space of this building to accommodate 300 additional clerks, which, if you had to go outside, would cost $60,000?

Mr. NEWTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. I do not know what you can show.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I am trying to ascertain.

Mr. CANNON. I do not see how you can do that without having a complete diagram.

Mr. NEWTON. We can furnish the working plans, that is the plans that have been prepared for the reconstruction. I am not sure that would be sufficient for anyone except an architect.

not an architect.

The CHAIRMAN. What additional vaults are there to be?
Mr. WETMORE. Two, for the Internal-Revenue Bureau.
The CHAIRMAN. Where are they to go?

Mr. WETMORE. On the sixth floor.

I am

MONDAY, JULY 16, 1917.




The CHAIRMAN. "Denver (Colo.) Mint: For incidental and contingent expenses, including new machinery and repairs, wastage in melting and refining department and coining department, and loss on sale of sweeps arising from the treatment of bullion and the manufacture of coin, $4,000."


Mr. FRANTZ. Perhaps I could save time by making a general statement. When it became increasingly apparent that the funds that we had estimated for to continue the operations, on the basis on which they were run, would not be available by the end of the fiscal year, we so curtailed operations that we kept within the appropriations that were already available except at the New Orleans Mint. There we have employed a couple of extra watchmen, which was done at the outbreak of the war.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, for these incidental expenses and contingent expenses

Mr. FRANTZ (interposing). For Denver we need nothing.


The CHAIRMAN. What did you expend at New Orleans?
Mr. FRANTZ. We employed there two additional watchmen.
The CHAIRMAN. What was the amount involved?

Mr. FRANTZ. They were employed at $800 per annum, and the deficiency is $630, or approximately $630; that would cover it.

Mr. GILLETT. Did not that come before us in a former deficiency bill?

Mr. FRANTZ. Yes, sir; it was provided for in a former bill.
The CHAIRMAN. The watchmen had been employed?

Mr. FRANTZ. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The other $1,000 was for the wages of workmen in the mint itself?

Mr. FRANTZ. This $630 is in lieu of that, is not? This is the only deficiency we have.

The CHAIRMAN. The same is true of the assay office at New York? Mr. FRANTZ. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And Philadelphia?

Mr. FRANTZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. There was no appropriation for these two watchmen?

Mr. FRANTZ. No, sir; there was none.

Mr. CANNON. And no authority of law to employ them?

Mr. FRANTZ. I believe not.

Mr. CANNON. Yet you did employ them?

Mr. FRANTZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. For the protection of the mint at New Orleans?

Mr. FRANTZ. Yes, sir; of twenty-two and a half million dollars in silver dollars on storage there.

Mr. CANNON. Were you aware that you were violating the law? Mr. FRANTZ. It was done as a war emergency, I believe.

Mr. CANNON. Precisely, and I am not quarreling with you, but I want to get at the facts. Were there any other employees taken on under similar conditions?

Mr. FRANTZ. None that I know of.

Mr. CANNON. Employees which you had to employ but who were not appropriated for?

Mr. FRANTZ. None that I know of.

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