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provided not only the pay for all the men but the kind of clothing, the kind of gun, and the whole thing was financed in one proposition. That is where the pay was put in. Normally it would have been sent down to the Quartermaster General and to the Ordnance Department-Gen. Crozier-but in order to get a concrete plan worked out the whole thing was put together and explained as one bill.

Mr. SHERLEY. Then, if I understand you, this item can go out, as it has been taken care of?

Gen. SQUIER. I do not think it has been taken care of. It is my understanding, Mr. Sherley, that this large item

Mr. SHERLEY. The Quartermaster General presented estimates here for the pay of officers, divided up according to the different corps of the army. For instance, we have here the Ordnance Department, the Quartermaster Corps, the Signal Corps, the Medical Department, etc.

Gen. SQUIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Now, when it came to an inquiry as to the needs for this additional money, as I recall it, the statement was made that that would be explained by the Signal Corps; and what we are trying to ascertain is whether this money is required for your officer personnel?

Gen. SQUIER. I see.

Mr. SHERLEY. You have had $2,129,167. Now, you had in your estimates going to make up your appropriation of $640,000,000 an item, which was No. 38, for the pay of reserve enlisted men and civil employees, and the travel expenses of the same when not traveling with troops, amounting to $37,347.862; and the question arose in the minds of the committee whether that sum embraced all or any part of the moneys in the $21.870,000 estimated for here-that is, whether there had been a duplication?

Gen. SQUIER. I think not; no, sir. I will have to look into that if you will allow me, and I will insert a statement in the record: Note by Gen. Squier:

The Regular Army appropriation act contains $500,000 for pay of officers of the Signal Corps, including the Aviation Section. The urgent deficiency act contains $1,629,167 for the same purpose. The general deficiency act now before the committee contains $21.870,833, also for the same purpose.

These three sums total $24,000,000. This amount will provide for 10,000 officers, at $2,400 each, of the regular Signal Corps and those temporarily appointed under the act of July 24, 1917, for one year. This is the number the Quartermaster Corps was asked to estimate for.

These amounts are not duplicated in the act of July 24, 1917. Item 38, mentioned before, refers to pay of officers of the Officers' Reserve Corps, Aviation Section; men of the Enlisted Reserve Corps, Aviation Section; and such enlisted men as may be enlisted in the Aviation Section of the Signal Corps under the provision of section 2 of the act approved May 18, 1917, but not officers of the Regular Army, enlisted men of the Regular Army, or officers who may be appointed in the Regular Army under the provisions of the act of Congress approved July 24, 1917.

COMMERCIAL TELEPHONE SERVICE AT COAST ARTILLERY POSTS.

(See p. 596.)

Mr. SHERLEY. There is a little item on page 59 that has been explained by the Coast Artillery people. You are asking $5,000 there for providing commercial telephone service for official purposes at Toast Artillery posts.

Gen. SQUIER. You see, the funny thing about this is that the telephone service for the mobile army is paid by the Quartermaster General, and the other is paid, as it ought to be, by us. This is simply an extra estimate due to the war.

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 8, 1917.

MEDICAL DEPARTMENT.

STATEMENTS OF MAJ. GEN. WILLIAM C. GORGAS, SURGEON GENERAL, LIEUT. COL. HENRY C. FISHER, AND MR. B. B. THOMPSON, CHIEF CLERK.

MEDICAL AND HOSPITAL DEPARTMENT.

SUPPLIES, INCLUDING GAS MASKS.

The CHAIRMAN. For the purchase of medical and hospital supplies, including gas masks, you had an appropriation of $30,780.000, and you are asking $100,026,000. What is the necessity for this, General? Gen. GORGAS. The war conditions and the much larger force asked for. We are asking for this on the basis of a force of about 2,000,000 men. It is also due to the increased cost of things and all the changed conditions from the time we made the former estimate. The CHAIRMAN. Does this money and the previous appropriation provide medical equipment for an Army of 2.000,000 men?

Gen. GORGAS. That is the present estimate, as Gen. Sharpe estimated the other day.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that for the original equipment?

Col. FISHER. It includes the original equipment and upkeep also, such as the purchase of medicines, dressings, etc.

The CHAIRMAN. For how long a period?

Col. FISHER. The equipment, of course, is for the entire Army, and the upkeep is for a period of six months for a portion of the Army and for about nine months for another portion of the Army. The CHAIRMAN. Well, which portions, Colonel?

Col. FISHER. Our original estimate, Mr. Chairman, was simply for 1,000,000 men, and that is less than what the Army is, so we feel that by the time three months has expired the Army will be about 1.500.000 men, and therefore we are asking for a deficiency for 500.000 men for nine months, and then we estimate that there will be nother draft of 500,000 men to come in possibly along in December. We do not know exactly, but we came as near as we could to it. The CHAIRMAN. Let me see if I understand you. You figured on 1,000,000 men for one year?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And 500,000 additional men for nine months? Col. FISHER. Yes; and 500.000 more for six months.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you anticipate having 2,000,000 men to provide for from the 1st of this coming January?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no possible chance of any such situation as that arising.

Col. FISHER. The Quartermaster General is making his estimates on that basis.

Gen. GORGAS. In discussing it the other day before the Finance Committee Gen. Sharpe took that ground, for instance, that a mil lion men had already been provided and that the 500.000 in the present draft would get in their camps along in September and October and have to be provided for, and that we would need another draft of 500,000 men to replace wastage as soon as they were disposed of.

The CHAIRMAN. We know, General, that you can not possibly have 2,000,000 men by the 1st of January. You will be lucky to have 1,000,000 men.

Gen. GORGAS. We are certain to have a good deal more than 1,000,000 men by the 1st of January. The Regular Army is about full now and the National Guard is about full. We are going to have 1,500,000 men by the 1st of October.

The CHAIRMAN. Oh, no.

can not equip them.

There is no chance for that, because they

Gen. GORGAS. We will have to have this money to equip them.
The CHAIRMAN. That is what I want to find out.

Col. FISHER. That is just the point, Mr. Chairman, if I may be permitted to interrupt. We must have the money to equip them and the money that we have had has not been sufficient to equip the actual army that is authorized, and it takes so long to get these things that we feel it is absolutely imperative that we give orders for the equipment of a second million men right now, otherwise we will be absolutely lost in the question of supplies and will not have them when we need them. We feel that we must absolutely go into the market now and place the orders for the second million men in order to have the supplies when we need them.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you place all your orders at once?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir; we can get better rates in that way.

The CHAIRMAN. If the orders were all placed by the 1st of September, when would the deliveries be completed?

Col. FISHER. Some of the deliveries take 10 months or more.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any knowledge what proportion would take that length of time?

Col. FISHER. I could not say offhand what proportion.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, deliveries that would take place after the 30th of June need not be provided for in this bill.

Col. FISHER. We would have to incur the obligation.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand that; but you could be given authority to incur obligations.

Col. FISHER. For instance, in getting our surgical dressings we were confronted apparently with the impossibility of getting the surgical dressings we needed for this army: but through arrangements with the Council of National Defense, and by calling on the manufacturers and calling on the mills to devote their extra shifts in all the mills of certain sections, we think we will be successful. They wanted to know our entire needs for a year, and they said they must know them in order that they might make arrangements, and we have to place our order for the entire year and obligate it.

Gen. GORGAS. Have you some information from the department that we will not have 1.500.000 men by the 1st of October in camp to equip?

The CHAIRMAN. We have information that they can only equip about 150,000 of the 500,000 men selected under this draft by the 1st of September.

Gen. GORGAS. On account of their inability to get the supplies? The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Gen. GORGAS. But they want equipment for 1,500,000 men by the 1st of September.

The CHAIRMAN. They want it, but they will not have it.

Gen. GORGAS. We are asking for the money to get our share of it. The CHAIRMAN. You wish to be in a position to order all the supplies required for the 2,000,000 men?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir; that is, in general terms.

The CHAIRMAN. But you do not expect to expend all the money before the 30th of next June?

Gen. GORGAS. We expect to expend it as fast as we can get supplies, or obligate it. I think that we will need equipment for 2,000,000 men before next June.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not expect to expend all of the money before the 30th of next June?

Gen. GORGAS. There are some supplies which we will not be able to get. If I could get them, I should like to spend it before next June.

The CHAIRMAN. You can not expend it if deliveries can not be made?

Col. FISHER. I think deliveries can be made. I think that we could spend the money by next June, and that we ought to do it. The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that all the deliveries will be made? Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You said that some of these deliveries would take at least 10 months?

Col. FISHER. It is taking 10 months for some of the deliveries now. We are asking them to speed up, and we hope to get quicker delivery than 10 months, and we believe that we will.

Mr. SHERLEY. You had $1,494,000 in the Army bill. You asked for $23.780,000, and that was increased, at your suggestion, to $29,780,000, making a total of $30,780,000. That was estimated on the basis of a million men. That is true?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. You are now asking for an additional $100,000,000, although your million men has only grown at the outside to 2,033,000, which is the total that The Adjutant General gave us?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. It would indicate that it was costing, instead of $31,000,000, in round figures, for a million men, $65,000.000 for a mil, lion men. Why is there that difference; more than twice as much? Col. FISHER. Our first estimate was made before the declaration of war.

Mr. SHERLEY. Oh, no. Your estimate of $29,780,000 was submitted long after the war was declared, and was an increase over your original figure of $23,780,000.

Col. FISHER. It was made on a peace-time estimate, and certainly Was not big enough. For instance, in ordinary peace times for a thousand men we allow about 8 per cent of beds-that is, 80 for a thousand men. That estimate was made on that kind of a basis.

For war-time conditions we know that in Austria, for instance, they have made provisions for 30 per cent back of the firing line. That means four times as much as the ordinary peace-time estimate. This first estimate was made for ordinary peace conditions, practically to equip people in this country. Now that we know that troops are going abroad, we will have to have 20 to 25 per cent of beds and hospitals equipped with all the appliances over there. We will have to have an additional 10 per cent in this country. We shall have to have at least 30 per cent of beds and everything that pertains to that for the entire Army. The expense is going to be something enormous, - it is true.

In addition to that, prices have increased 50 or 100 per cent in many cases. The price of our medicines has gone up and our instruments and surgical supplies of all kinds have increased enormously in price. We feel fortunate when we can get them at any price. We have had to make the most strenuous endeavor, with the assistance of the Council of National Defense, to get the things delivered to us at any price. Deliveries are slow, and it takes time.

The CHAIRMAN. Thus far have you been able to meet the demands that have been made for supplies?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have orders been placed for all the appropriations that have been made?

Col. FISHER. For all the appropriations and more. priations would not cover our needs.

The appro

The CHAIRMAN. Just what has been done by the Medical Department?

Col. FISHER. We have placed orders for all of the appropriations and have been urging rapid deliveries.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that orders have been placed for more than the appropriations?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. To what extent have you placed orders in excess of the appropriations?

Col. FISHER. We have issued orders for supplies for 1,000,000 men. Now, we know that the Army is to be larger than 1,000,000, and in addition to that there are a number of things that we did not contemplate. For instance, this matter of gas masks has been thrown upon the Medical Department.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that you have issued orders for supplies in excess of the appropriations?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. To what extent have you issued orders for supplies in excess of the money available to pay for them?

Col. FISHER. There have been some orders for such items as gas masks, for some additional surgical supplies, and for some field equipment like belts for the Hospital Corps men.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know how much it aggregates?

Col. FISHER. No, sir; I do not know. We can not tell ahead of

time what things will cost.

The CHAIRMAN. You can tell what you have ordered.

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I am trying to ascertain what has been done. beyond the amount provided?

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