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Col. FISHER. We have incurred some obligations for gas masks and for some surgical dressings.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know to what extent?

Col. FISHER. I can not tell offhand.

The CHAIRMAN. Please put those figures in the record.

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

(The desired data are indicated as follows:)

Out of the $30,780,000 available for the current fiscal year, obligations have been incurred on approved contracts for supplies at the present date in the gross amount of $27,981,922.32. The balance of about $3,000,000 will be fully absorbed in sundry miscellaneous costs, including the laundry of hospital linen, pay of civilian employees, employment of civilian medical service, etc.

The supplies referred to being far short of what will be necessary for the equipment of the enlarged Army, the Secretary of War in the latter part of July authorized the Surgeon General, under section 3732 of the Revised Statutes as amended, to incur a deficiency for immediate preparatory measures in the sum of $29,000,000 over and above funds in hand. Under that authority orders have been given to medical purchasing officers to make contracts and place orders for a large quantity of supplies, the exact cost of which is not yet a matter of record in this office and therefore can not be given in concrete figures. When the contracts come in for record no doubt is entertained that they will approximate the $29,000,000 deficiency authorized. It should be added, however, that such deficiency expenditures cover only a relatively small part of the aggregate that will be required before June 30 next for the complete medical outfit of the military forces in contemplation, so as to provide proper safeguards against needless loss of life, and distress and suffering among the sick and wounded.

It is most urgently represented that to prevent shortage of medical supplies and suffering therefrom the Medical Department will need the full amount requested in the estimate; that we must proceed at once to place large additional orders; and that this full amount and probably more must be spent before June 30 next.

The CHAIRMAN. When you speak of supplies for 1,000,000 men or 2,000,000 men is that based upon the needs of the Medical Department as estimated for 1,000,000 men actually in the field, and that this is the equipment that will be needed to take care of them? Col FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The supplies which you are buying are supplies which will be actually required in the field operations?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You have been relieved of a great deal of the burden by the contributions of various organizations, have you not? Gen. GORGAS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Base hospital units have been organized in different places; have they not supplied their own equipment?

Gen. GORGAS. When we took them in we did not take their equipment. There were a few organized with $25,000 of equipment. Those that went to the English Army, we did not send their equipment. The English surgeon general cabled me that he did not want it. We have sent over in all 10, 6 to the English and 4 to our own Army. Six of those did not take their equipment. The CHAIRMAN. Where did they get their equipment? Gen. GORGAS. The English furnished it over there. The CHAIRMAN. But four have gone to our Army?

Col. FISHER. They took the equipment for 500 beds. We furnished additional equipment. We feel extremely fortunate that they were ready and had the equipment to take.

The CHAIRMAN. For instance, a base hospital unit was organized in Chicago and went into the service?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. They raised the money to equip it. When they go abroad they take the equipment for that base hospital. In some instances the Red Cross has offered to equip them.

Gen. GORGAS. Those raised before the war the Red Cross furnished $25,000 of equipment. Since the war we have notified them that we do not care for any more equipment; that we will equip our own base hospitals in the future.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, raised before the war?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir. We had quite a number. Before the German war the Red Cross got together the personnel, the men, doctors, nurses, and so on, who were to come into the Army when war commenced, and for which they furnished $25,000 of equipment. When actually called into the service we furnished the rest.

The CHAIRMAN. You furnished all of this?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir; everything. It depends on what is to occur. If the Red Cross already has the equipment, we will probably receive it. We can not count on that in the future.

The CHAIRMAN. Is the personnel volunteer or are they paid? Gen. GORGAS. Just like any other Army hospital; we pay everything.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you pay the nurses?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir; it becomes a military hospital. The personnel is enlisted, the doctors are commissioned, and the nurses are contracted with.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it all contract work?

Gen. GORGAS. We call them contracts; it is just like any other Army hospital.

The CHAIRMAN. Take the doctor.

Gen. GORGAS. He is commissioned in the Army, just like I am. The CHAIRMAN. At what rank?

Gen. GORGAS. From major down.

The CHAIRMAN. His rank is major?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And the nurses all become Army nurses?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir; just like the present nurses.

The CHAIRMAN. All the nurses who are taken in, regardless of the manner in which they come in, become regular Army nurses and are paid as such?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There are no volunteer nurses who serve without compensation?

Gen. GORGAS. Not so far; no. The Red Cross has just been acting for us as a recruiting bureau.

The CHAIRMAN. You say that there have been 10 base-hospital outfits already taken in?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir; there are 10 in Europe now.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there not a number of other organizations? Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir. The Red Cross in that way has gotten together 43 all told.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the personnel of one of those units?

Gen. GORGAS. In general terms, 25 doctors, 50 nurses, and about 100 other personnel-cooks, orderlies, etc., which amounts to about 175 people. Several of those hospitals have been increased enormously. We sent over 500 beds, and some of them are up to 1,500. We also sent over additional personnel.

The CHAIRMAN. You have to increase the personnel as you increase the number of beds?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir. The English have run their hospitals on a much larger scale than we have. This personnel went right into the English hospital; they just took over the buildings, patients, beds, and all.

Mr. SHERLEY. The funds that come under this heading of "Medical and Hospital Department" are the funds with which you secure all the supplies for hospitals, both here and abroad, whether they are permanent or field and whether they are temporary at cantonments or elsewhere. Is that true?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. It has nothing to do with the cost of building hospitals in this country?

Gen. GORGAS. No, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Has it anything to do with the building of hospitals abroad?

Gen. GORGAS. No, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. It has only to do with supplies and equipment? Gen. GORGAS. It is the same item that we have year after year in the regular appropriation.

Mr. SHERLEY. I understand. It is simply for supplies and equipment?

Gen. GORGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Manifestly, the amount of supplies and, to some extent, the amount of equipment that you are going to need for troops in America is going to be very much less than what you are going to need for troops that are abroad engaged in actual hostilities?

Gen. GORGAS. I do not exactly see that; it will be just the same.

Col. FISHER. I am not sure that I get what you mean. In addition to equipment we have to pay for the upkeep of a certain number of employees. We have also to pay for laundrying the patients' clothing, and a number of sundries. All these items are included in the upkeep.

Mr. SHERLEY. This has nothing to do with buildings of any kind? Col. FISHER. No, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. What I asked a moment ago was, Did it not follow of necessity that you would require a very much less quantity of supplies and have a very much less wastage of supplies for the troops stationed in America than for those actually abroad in the field?

Gen. GORGAS. As to surgical dressings, if we are going to have 25 per cent wounded those things will be considerably larger. We have made no particular allowance for that in our estimate.

Col. FISHER. We must use larger quantities abroad than in this country in time of war.

Mr. SHERLEY. You have no idea of having anything like 2,000,000 men in the field prior to July of next year?

Gen. GORGAS. Over there?

Mr. SHERLEY. Yes, sir; in the field.

Gen. GORGAS. For everything, except surgical dressings, we would need the same here as there.

Mr. SHERLEY. If a man becomes ill or gets hurt; but, presumably, there will not be anything like the demand upon the Medical Department for men sick here that there will be for men sick abroad who are actually engaged in hostilities?

Gen. GORGAS. Do you mean hospital accommodations?

Mr. SHERLEY. Yes, sir.

Gen. GORGAS. No, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. You have made your estimate for 2,000,000 men and for supplies sufficient to take care of those men if they were all in the field?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir; simply because we do not dare to be unprepared. We feel that we must get those things and know where we are going to get them. We do not dare to take the responsibility of not having those things when needed. We feel that we must give the orders now, in order to have the things when needed. That has been the great difficulty all the time; we have not had the things when needed.

Mr. SHERLEY. Nobody is questioning that in the slightest, and certainly I would be the last man on earth who would question the wisdom of having all the supplies necessary for our troops; but that has not necessarily to do with the financial phase of it that I am trying to develop. That is this, if you are not going to have any thing like 2,000,000 men in the field by July-if I understand, your estimates are built on the supposition of having supplies for 2,000,000 men by July next, even should those men be in the field. In other words, you are getting enough supplies for 2,000,000 men in the field next July?

Col. FISHER. We will have to give the orders for them now, order to have them by next July.


Mr. SHERLEY. I am not questioning your need or expressing an opinion. If I understand your estimates, they are based on the idea of having sufficient supplies to take care of 2,000,000 men in the field! Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. From now until next July?

Col. FISHER. Not from now until next July.

Mr. SHERLEY. I do not mean 2,000,000 men immediately in the field, but, assuming at the beginning of July, 1918, there will be 2,000,000 men in the field, your estimates contemplate supplies that would be sufficient to take care of them in this country and abroad in whatever proportion they may go abroad up to the 2,000,000 men on July 1?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir; and we must place orders for them now, order to get them.


Mr. SHERLEY. Your estimates which were originally submitted to this committee were on a peace basis. You then revised them and figured that you needed $49,535,000 for a million men, gas masks not being included, and that made an item of something over a million dollars. Now, your figures would indicate that you expect to have to have over $60,000,000 in place of about $50,000,000 for a million


Col. FISHER. In the item of gas masks, for instance, we were told at the time the other estimate was submitted to provide for 200,000. Now we are told that we must provide at the rate of two gas masks for every man.

Mr. SHERLEY. What do the gas masks cost?

Col. FISHER. We estimate that they will cost at the rate of $12 a man. Each man has to have two gas masks, and, in addition, we have to have the oxygen apparatus for resuscitation, and what they call trench sprayers, to spray chemicals into the trenches filled with gas. The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean $12 a man or $12 a mask?

Col. FISHER. Twelve dollars a man.

The CHAIRMAN. And that would be two masks for each man?
Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And on the basis of 2,000,000 men that would be $24.000.000 alone?

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. You figured when you testified here before that your gas masks would cost $1,000,000, and that was for 200,000 men, which would be $5 a mask.

Col. FISHER. We were only contemplating one mask per man at that time.

Mr. SHERLEY. And $5 a mask.

Col. FISHER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. And now you figure it at $6 a mask.

Col. FISHER. And we have found now that we have to give two masks to each man.

Mr. SHERLEY. If it is $12 a man, and two masks for each man, that would make one mask cost $6.

Col. FISHER. We are counting now what we did not count before, repairs and replacements and additions. We did not count that as we ought to have. We have learned a great deal since that first estimate went in.

Mr. SHERLEY. Eliminating the gas masks, your revised estimate which you said was just a guess, and that guess made by doubling your peace estimate, which had been about $24,000,000 and which you then doubled to $49,000,000, has that figure remained constant, and are you now expecting, exclusive of gas masks, to be able to supply 1,000,000 men for about $49,000,000?

Col. FISHER. No, sir; I do not think we could do it for that.
Mr. SHERLEY. Well, what do you expect to do it for?

Col. FISHER. It will cost more nearly in the neighborhood of $60.000.000.

Mr. SHERLEY. Then your estimate here is inadequate, because if it costs $60,000,000, that would make $120,000,000, and if you added to that $24,000,000 for your masks that would make $144,000,000, whereas you are asking $139,000,000, which would be a difference of $5.000.000. Have your estimates now which enable you to estimate this $100,000,000 as the additional amount needed, been based upon any unit basis by which you have worked out what it is going to cost? Col. FISHER. We have tried to work it out on a unit basis. Mr. SHERLEY. What is that unit basis?

Col. FISHER. In ordinary peace times, for instance, we felt that it cost about $8 a man. Now, for war we feel that it will cost at least


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