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Mr. SMALL. That in detail sets forth the purposes. When the Secretary of Commerce called my attention to this I had a confer ence with him and with others, and I came to the conclusion that it was a wise expenditure, and I come for the purpose of giving my reasons for it.

The CHAIRMAN. What authority is there for creating in the Department of Commerce a division for promoting the development and use of internal waterways of the United States?

Mr. SMALL. That is a query I had not considered, but, without careful consideration, I should say as it involves the development and promotion of commerce that the department would have jurisdiction.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know about that. It looks to me as though some of the things are directly under the jurisdiction of the Interstate Commerce Commission.

Mr. SMALL. Possibly with this statement that I have in mind that query will be somewhat cleared.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. SMALL. As a member of the Committee on Rivers and Harbors and chairman for a little while, I have been impressed with this condition. We have, as a rule, possibly without any reasonable exception, developed a satisfactory commerce at all of the harbors of the country and upon many of the rivers directly tributary to those harbors, but we have not developed a satisfactory commerce upon many of the interior rivers. That condition has caused criticism, and justly so. Yet the River and Harbor Committee have not felt justi fied, nor has Congress apparently felt justified, in abandoning the further improvement of these rivers, which, as rivers, are of great importance. They have commerce contiguous to them which should be carried water borne, the necessity for additional instrumentalities of transportation justify the demand that a larger commerce be carried on them, and in seeking for the reason why this commerce has not grown as it should have grown, this thought has more than once come to my mind: First, that the facilities for water-borne transportation have not been provided. Among those facilities are water terminals. It has been demonstrated that you can not develop waterborne commerce properly without water terminals. By water terminals I mean a warehouse connected by a belt line with the railroad or railroads serving the community or city, with appliances for transferring freight quickly and cheaply from the water carrier to the warehouse or to the railway car, and vice versa.

Again, we can not develop water-borne commerce without the establishment of a system of prorating between the railroads and the water carriers, a system which shall approximate nearness to that which exists between the railroads themselves. If one may make a shipment on a through bill of lading with one rate from any point in the country to any other point in the country over a number of railroads, there is no reason why that same system should not apply between railroads and water carriers. That is impossible, however, without the facilities for transferring freight, and that means water terminals. Anybody who has been to any of the Lake ports-for instance, anyone who has visited Ashtabula and seen the terminals that provide quickly for transferring the iron ore from the ship into the car, or the coal from the car into the ship can realize the necessity of adequately equipped water terminals. One type of water carrier



on one river is appropriate that would not be appropriate on another. One type is suited to the Mississippi River and its tributaries and another type to most of the rivers on the Atlantic seaboard. The question is how we are going to get these facilities provided by the various localities and cities, because they are not provided by the United States and ought not to be. They must come by local cooperation. I have reached one conclusion, at least, that we need some bureau or official who can give Federal supervision to the matter of the promotion of commerce upon these rivers in the interior. So far as the services of engineers are needed in making surveys and providing plans and estimates of cost that will develop these rivers in the best way to promote commerce, we are well equipped; and, in a way, the War Department, through the engineers, reports also upon commerce and gives the information which enables the committee and Congress to determine whether a specific project is worthy of improvement. But improvements have been made of rivers based upon what seemed to be credible information of an intention to do the things that would bring commerce, and yet the commerce has not followed, at least to the extent that was anticipated and which ought to have been established.

Along this line in the Council of National Defense there has recently been appointed a subcommittee on waterway transportation similar to that on railway transportation. Mr. Fairfax Harrison is chairman of the committee on railway transportation, and Gen. Black, the Chief of Engineers, is for the time chairman of the committee on waterway transportation. That is a beginning. This would be a beginning. I think that this expenditure will provide us with information that will be exceedingly valuable.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Small, since this estimate was submitted, there has been created the Waterways Commission?

Mr. SMALL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will not that commission have the comprehensive jurisdiction that would absorb this jurisdiction?

Mr. SMALL. I do not think so. In the first place, that is an investigating commission with authority only to report.

The CHAIRMAN. It covers the cooperation of railways and waterways and promotion of terminal and transfer facilities. Why does that not cover everything? Why should there be a duplication, in your opinion?

Mr. SMALL. It does substantially include this and more. It purports to take up water from the time that it comes down and follows it to the ocean. Upon this commission are conferred powers which have been advocated for some years. Some have faith in it and others are somewhat incredulous regarding the beneficial results.

Here is something that would be important. Take a great river like the Missouri River, about which there has been so much talk and criticism in the years past. Kansas City and St. Louis have together established transportation on that river and it is developing in a very healthy way, and yet I am free to admit it is not as large as it ought to be. Take the upper Mississippi River from the mouth of the Ohio, it has commerce, but not as large as it should be. Take the Cumberland and the Tennessee Rivers, great rivers; take the Ohio River that we are improving, another great river, we will never

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develop the commerce on those rivers that ought to be developed until every city contiguous to them or town of any size whatever has an adequate terminal, equipped in proportion to the amount of business to be handled, until they have the right type of carriers, and until there is established a system of prorating with the railroads so that a through bill of lading may be given for traffic to be handled partly by water and partly by rail.

There must be a degree of encouragement and of supervision, and it occurred to me that this investigation, which would give us an immediate report, give us the information by the assembling of the regular session of Congress in December

Mr. SHERLEY (interposing). They could not make a report by that time?

Mr. SMALL. They could submit a preliminary report that would be very valuable.

Mr. SHERLEY. It would be a report of no value. Take the Ohio River, do you mean to say that any set of men newly gotten together under the form of this appropriation could undertake to tell you the kind of terminals that should be at Louisville, Ky.? I happen to know something concretely about that situation.

Mr. SMALL. What kind of water terminals have they there? Mr. SHERLEY. The same kind they have all along the Ohio River. They are simply without any real facilities. The problem there is a problem which it would not be possible for a board to pass intelligently on between now and the 1st of December.

The CHAIRMAN. This provides for a chief of division, an assistant chief of division, and for temporary employment to the extent of $5.000. The persons who could be employed under such an appropriation as that could not make any kind of a report by December.

Mr. BYRNS. Is it not a fact that the Department of Commerce is now carrying on just such an activity as Mr. Small advocates? I do not know out of what fund, probably out of the fund for the promotion of commerce, but I noticed in the papers a few days ago that Mr. Parker had been touring certain sections of the country addressing business organizations and others, advocating just such things as you have mentioned, with reference to terminals, etc. dare say that there are probably others employed out of the lump. sum to travel over the country and do the same thing.

Mr. SMALL. I do not know of any regular activity in the Department of Commerce along this line. Apparently reports have been made from time to time by one or two bureaus of the department. The Bureau of Navigation has occasionally touched upon it and occasionally a man has been appointed to make special reports on certain subjects, a special man, but they have been very general, and with a view to stimulating public interest.

Mr. SISSON. Are there not two things which are responsible for that situation, first, the capacity to handle at the bank of the river, and, second, quickness of transportation? That is, at the interior points the people have been compelled to pay excessive freight rates to the railroads and at competing points frequently they carry the freight at such a very low rate that it is doubtful whether the railroads make any money and the steamboat people are compelled to quit the river? Has not that been true on the larger transportation

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rivers like the Mississippi and the Ohio, where they have paralleled the river with the railroad?

Mr. SMALL. I can make this statement in reply to the question of Mr. Sisson. In former years, more than at present, the railroads did frequently reduce rail rates competitive with the rivers, and, as a rule, they recouped by charging higher rates to the interior; but after all it comes down to the question of the facilities offered the public for the transportation of freight, and if shippers have patronized the railroads rather than the rivers, it was for the twofold reason that low rates were provided and that the rivers did not have carriers properly equipped to carry the freight.

Mr. SISSON. The question of loading and unloading is a difficult one; that is, unless you have facilities for getting the stuff in and out of the boat?

Mr. SMALL. Absolutely. At some of the old landings along the Mississippi River it costs more to take the freight out of the boat and to get it to the warehouse of the consignee in the city than it does to carry it on the boat 100, or 200 or 300 miles. No commerce can be built up under those conditions. That condition can only be avoided by the construction of these terminals. There must be some supervision and encouragement, some governmental activity which can prod these localities with a view to providing the water carriers with these necessary essentials.

I just wanted to give you the benefit of my judgment. I think it is a valuable inquiry.

MONDAY, AUGUST 13, 1917.




Mr. BYRNS. "For folding speeches and pamphlets, at a rate not exceeding $1 per thousand, $3,000."

Mr. SINNOTT. Mr. Chairman, the last general deficiency appropriation bill gave me $3,000, and that is exhausted to-day; and we need this $3,000 for the rest of the session and for the beginning of the next session of Congress. We may not use but $1.000 of this $3,000 at the present session, but we will need the additional $2,000 at the beginning of the regular session in December.

Mr. BYRNS. Could you not get that in the urgent deficiency bill? Mr. SINNOTT. No; I need that immediately.

Mr. BYRNS. I refer to the $2,000 which you will need. You say you will need $1,000 for this session.

Mr. SINNOTT. Very probably. It depends upon the length of the session, and we will need the additional $2,000 as soon as Congress meets in December, and that is the reason I had in the last appropriation bill $3,000 for this item. I did not think at that time I was going to use it this summer because I did not have a special session in mind.

Mr. BYRNS. My question as to the urgent deficiency bill was directed to the $2,000 which you will need. I understand you will only need $1,000 for the balance of this session.

Mr. SINNOTT. About $1,000. Of course that is a rough estimate. I do not think Congress will be in session more than another month, but I am simply making a wild guess at that.

Mr. BYRNS. Does this work begin immediately on the assembling of Congress?

Mr. SINNOTT. Yes, sir; because when the regular session begins the Members immediately begin to prepare for their campaigns, and the work starts in just as soon as they get in town. After the beginning of the session next December we will need at least $2,500 or $3,000 a month to run us for the speeches folded in a campaign year.

Mr. BYRNS. And you have consumed your present appropriation and will need $1,000 for the balance of this session, and the $2,000 is to take the place of the money which you expect to have for use next December?

Mr. SINNOTT. That is correct.


Mr. BYRNS. For the maintenance and repair of a motor truck for the use of the folding room, $200.”

Mr. SINNOTT. The last appropriation bill gave me $2,000 to buy an auto truck. We bought the truck and began its use on the 1st of July. The truck cost $1,800. That only leaves us $200 to upkeep and maintain the truck until the next legislative bill goes into effect next year. It costs about $20 a month for gasoline to run the truck, and we need this additional appropriation in case we have to make some repairs in the meantime.

Mr. BYRNS. This would give you $400 for the fiscal year for this purpose?

Mr. SINNOTT. Yes, sir.




The CHAIRMAN. You are asking for $12,000 under miscellaneous items for contingent expenses of the House?

Mr. SOUTH. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the total appropriation for this year? Mr. SOUTH. $150,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this for last year?

Mr. SOUTH. This deficiency is for last year.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your appropriation last year?
Mr. SOUTH. $75,000.

The CHAIRMAN. And your balance now is

Mr. SOUTH (interposing). No, sir; for last year we had $150,000, all told, and now we have got $5,000 of it left, or fifty-three hundred and some odd dollars. We have about $11,000 worth of telegraph

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