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(See p. 859.)

The CHAIRMAN. General, we provided heretofore the sums it was estimated would be required for ordnance purposes for an army of 1,000,000 men for one year.

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. General, all of the Infantry Regulars who are going abroad are being equipped with modern rifles?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. The National Guard, presumably, will be the early troops, after the Regulars, to follow them to the front. Are they going to be equipped with modern rifles?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. There are going to be called some time this fall something like six hundred odd thousand men that compose the National Army as a result of the draft law. They will go into training camps. To what extent will you be able to equip them with rifles?

Gen. CROZIER. To a considerable extent, but not to the full extent. Of those 687,000 all but about 500,000 will probably go into the Regular Army or the National Guard, to fill them up, leaving only about 500,000 of the National Army. The 187,000 that will go into the Regular Army and the National Guard I have included in my answer to you about the Regular Army and the National Guard. Mr. SHERLEY. But they can not go until they get the training? Gen. CROZIER. That is true.

Mr. SHERLEY. Any more than the other men can go into the National Army?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Will you be able to supply every soldier whose instruction will require the use of a rifle in training with either the Springfield, the modified Enfield, or a Krag?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. There will be no need, then, for any soldier being trained in these camps in the use of a rifle to be without one of these types of rifle for his training?

Gen. CROZIER. No, sir; that is correct.

Mr. SHERLEY. Those who are trained with the Krag-Jorgensen, to what extent will it be necessary to additionally train them for the use of the modified Enfield that is to supplant the Krag?

Gen. CROZIER. To a very slight extent.

Mr. SHERLEY. In other words, the training in making them infantrymen, except to a very limited degree, would not be dependent upon them having the particular type of rifle?

Gen. CROZIER. That is true, particularly when all three might well be considered modern rifles. The Krag-Jorgensen, although we call it an obsolete rifle for us now, is still a small bore, smokeless powder, magazine, bolt gun. That describes the principal characteristics of the most modern rifle.

Mr. SHERLEY. You supply, in addition to the rifle, a good deal of other equipment which might be designated, though it may not be the technical name, as the personal equipment of the soldier?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. I am not speaking now of anything with reference to field artillery as such, but I am speaking more particularly of what would relate to the Infantry soldier and to the noncommissioned and commissioned officers of the Army. What position will you be in touching the equipment of them? In the first place, am I right in the assumption that all the regular troops that are going abroad, in the sense of personal equipment that I have spoken of, will be fully supplied?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; fully supplied.

Mr. SHERLEY. How about the National Guard?

Gen. CROZIER. I think that the National Guard will be fully equipped also by the time they go abroad.

Mr. SHERLEY. How about being equipped fully when they go into the training camps so as to have all the necessary equipment incident to their training?

Gen. CROZIER. I think they will have all that is necessary for their training, although there will be some shortages. The personal equipment of the character you speak of constitutes that which goes with the man's fighting ability. For instance, his cartridge belt is an article of personal equipment. He has that to fight with. It also comprises that which is necessary for the man to maintain himself and keep himself alive. He has to have certain utensils to cook his food or eat it, a canteen to carry water in, a pack carrier-it used to be called a knapsack and then afterwards a haversack, but they do not use either now. The pack carrier takes the place of both and is needed for the same purpose. He has to have that to carry some of his necessary personal belongings in. Some of these things are necessary from the time the man comes into the service. For instance, what he eats with he has to have as soon as he comes into the service.

Some of the things may not be necessary until he has to do some marching. With reference to what he has to have as soon as he comes into the service, namely, his meat-ration can, his knife, fork, and spoon, his tin cup-although it is not made of tin any more--and, perhaps, also his canteen, he will have those right from the beginning; that is, he will have them or he will have a commercial substitute which will do until he can get the regular things. Then, before he has to do anything which involves marching, he will have the pack carrier. There is no perfect assurance that every man will have the pack-carrier articles as soon as he comes in the service, because we have encountered a shortage of material and we have encountered a shortage of looms with which to weave the material.

Mr. SHERLEY. If I understand you, General, all the men that go into the Regulars and go abroad, and the Regulars who are here, will be fully equipped with all the personal equipment of every kind and description?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. As to the National Guard-you have already explained about the rifles-they will be equipped either with the standard article or with a commercial one that will serve the same purpose, though presumably not quite as good, from the time they come into the service, into these camps, and during their training, and that, with the possible exception of the packs, by the time they may be ready to go abroad they will all be equipped fully with all the personal equipment?

Gen. CROZIER. The last statement is unodubtedly true in regard to their equipment either with the standard or a commercial article as soon as they come into the service. There are one or two articles in regard to which there may be a shortage. The bayonet scabbard situation is not quite as good as I should like to see it in the matter of promptness of supply, and there may be a period in training men when a man will have to carry his bayonet in some other way than in a scabbard, but they will be equipped before they go abroad, even the National Guard troops.

Mr. SHERLEY. As to all the personnel that carries pistols, will you able to supply the Regulars and the National Guard with them? Gen. CROZIER. I am not perfectly sure of that.

Mr. SHERLEY. When we come to the National Army, the six hundred and odd thousand drafted men

Gen. CROZIER (interposing). Right there, Mr. Sherley. I think you place the National Army too high, because all above 500,000 will go into the Regular Army and the National Guard-what I have already spoken of as the Regular Army and the National Guard.

Mr. SHERLEY. What we are doing is carrying in mind in perhaps not the most scientific way three groups of men because of the different situation, in a broad sense, that confronts us. The Regulars, presumably, are trained, equipped men, who, whether here or abroad, have their full equipment. The National Guard, presumably, are reasonably equipped men, because as members of the National Guard they were entitled to receive and did receive certain quantities of personal equipment, and then the National Army, which comes as civilians without any equipment, except what may be given them when they come to the camp. So I have designated them in that general way, because it is the way that the average Member of Congress will be thinking of them.

What I am trying to ascertain is this: When these drafted men come into the service in September and perhaps some of them later. but in the first draft, whether you are going to be in a position to equip them fully, and if not fully, whether you will be in a position to so equip them as to in no material sense delay their training, and whether, after that training has gone to the point where they are ready for service abroad, you will then be in a position to send them with this personal equipment, fully equipped?

Gen. CROZIER. I do not believe, Mr. Sherley, that we will be able to send them fully equipped.

Mr. SHERLEY. I am not talking about the Field Artillery at all. Gen. CROZIER. I do not believe that we will be able to send them fully equipped as soon as they would otherwise be ready to go, but I do think that we will be able to send them fully equipped as soor as we will be able to send them at all; get them over there.

Mr. SHERLEY. In other words, the delay that will be incident to the limitation upon transportation will be such as to enable you, by the time they can be actually transported, to fully equip them?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; I think so. If they could be transported as soon as they would be otherwise ready, we could not equip them. Mr. SHERLEY. Presumably, it will take three or four months of training here as the minimum, before the department would feel disposed to send them abroad. Do you anticipate that by the middle of January you can fully equip them?

Gen. CROZIER. I think before that time we shall have them all fully equipped. We have been informed recently that the period of training at home which has been found desirable for the English troops, now that they have training which they can get in France, has been very much curtailed and takes no longer than three or four months, but has been cut down to something not more than half that time.

Mr. SHERLEY. Two months.

Gen. CROZIER. The ordinary statement is nine weeks at home and nine days in France before they are ready for the firing line.

The CHAIRMAN. They are building these cantonments on the theory that they are going to occupy them for a considerable time?

Gen. CROZIER. That short period of training to which I referred results, of course, from their having an opportunity to fill their organizations with a great many men who have been through the mill, which we would not have.

Mr. SHERLEY. That presents an entirely different proposition. Of course, with an existing organization where you are simply feeding in those supports, you can feed in those supports in a period of much less training that you could create an entirely new organization. I have in mind the creation of a new organization, because, presumably, at least 500,000 of the drafted men are being drafted with the idea of creating new organizations, and the others, the one hundred thousand-odd more in the subsequent drafts are supposed to be for the supports of the organizations heretofore created. As to these organizations, you do not have in mind that they can be trained so as to be in a position to be sent abroad in anything like nine weeks?

Gen. CROZIER. No: I do not think they can.

Mr. SHERLEY. That would be a matter of some three months as the minimum?

Gen. CROZIER. Probably; yes, sir. I am not certain.

Mr. SHERLEY. To put my question in another way, will there be any need of slowing up in the sending of troops abroad or the training of troops here, having in mind that I am not now speaking of Field Artillery at all, because of your inability to supply those troops with personal equipment?

Gen. CROZIER. I do not think so.

Mr. SHERLEY. The equipment that comes from the Ordnance Bureau?

Gen. CROZIER. I do not think so.


Mr. SHERLEY. General. I think it would be desirable to have you make a very brief statement for the record as to the line that separates your crops from the Quartermaster's Corps in regard to the equipment that goes to the individual soldier?

Gen. CROZIER. In regard to what the soldier has, it can be stated in general terms that the Ordnance Department furnishes the arms and ammunition and the personal and horse equipment, and the Quartermaster's Department furnishes the clothing and equipment. which is not personal. In regard to some of the things, it is a little difficult to say simply from naming the articles in which class it will fall; the division is a little bit artificial. Of course, everybody knows

what is meant by arms and ammunition. The ammunition for an Infantry or Cavalry man has to be carried in the cartridge belt, and therefore the Ordnance Department furnishes the cartridge belt. The cartridge belt is fitted to the ammunition. Then the cartridge belt has certain articles of equipment attached to it, for instance. the pack carrier, in which the soldier carries his personal belongings, his tooth brush and certain articles of clothing that he carries with him. His blanket is attached to his person by straps which pass over his shoulder and fasten to the cartridge belt. The pack carrier is included in the equipment which the Ordnance Department furnishes. The articles of his field-mess equipment, namely, his knife, fork, spoon, canteen, meat-ration can, cup, and certain other little articles that we need not mention have to be fitted into the pack. and also some hung onto the cartridge belt. Therefore, in order that they shall all accord the Ordnance Department furnishes them also. Similarly about his person and fitted in his pack carrier are his intrenching tools. A great portion of the soldiers carry a small pick. a certain portion carry a shovel, and a certain portion carry wire cutters, which may not be intrenching tools, but they are used in connection with trench work. As to the wire, it is usually the enemy's trench that is in mind then. Those things have to be carried about in a particular place in this pack and therefore one department designs the pack and also furnishes those things.

The CHAIRMAN. Assuming that this National Army is called and comes in on the 15th of September, would you be prepared to supply them with the equipment which they must have at the time they enter training?

Gen. CROZIER. In order to maintain themselves, yes; either of the standard variety or a commercial variety. That is to say, if we do not have this meat ration can, which separates into a platter and plate, they can be furnished commercially as long as they are in


The CHAIRMAN. If 500.000 are called to come in September 15, would you be in a position to supply them with those things, or would it be necessary to defer calling a part of them because of your inability to supply the things which they must have to maintain themselves?

Gen. CROZIER. I think we can supply a man with the things that he must have to maintain himself.

Mr. SHERLEY. There is quite a bit of war equipment-this is still outside the field of Field Artillery-that you furnish. For instance, hand grenades and a number of other offensive weapons that are used by the soldier. Are you in a position to furnish the troops of the Regular Army with all of such equipment?

Gen. CROZIER. No, sir. For the proper supply of some of that equipment we will have to draw on the capacity of our allies in the beginning.

Mr. SHERLEY. So that not being in a position to supply the Regu lars fully, it is needless, of course, to ask whether you would be in a position to supply the other ones?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Presumably, as to the use of some of this equipment there will be need of a certain quantity for the training of the National Guard and the drafted men?

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