which keeps me out of trouble and keeps me from violating the law in regard to the availability of funds, and which keeps us from allotting money that we have not got that division is in a building by itself, and we can only communicate with each other by telephone or by writing. The rate at which we could do our work is slowed up, and I should say that we are working at, perhaps, 60 or 70 per cent efficiency, as compared with what we might do.

The CHAIRMAN. So far as you are aware, the needs of the Ordnance Bureau were not considered in the presentation of these other estimates?

Gen. CROZIER. So far as I am aware, they were not.

The CHAIRMAN. You have no rent appropriation under you, have you, that is being used for your present quarters?

Gen. CROZIER. I only have that

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). $15,000?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; and about $3,500 left from a previous authorization. The rest of it is being paid by the War Department. It is all under leases which I think expire with this fiscal year, and as it would be pretty near the end of the year before I could get into this new building, the space I am now occupying would not be left on the War Department's hands unless they choose to continue to use it for some other offices.

MOUNTAIN, FIELD, AND SIEGE CANNON.

The CHAIRMAN. General, before we take up these items which are under the heading "fortification," and in the paragraphs usually carried in the fortifications bill, I wish to ask whether any of thes? items are exclusively for coast defenses?

Gen. CROZIER. No; none of them, except the submarine mines, $700,000.

The CHAIRMAN. "For purchase, manufacture, and test of mountain, field, and siege cannon," you are asking $899,013,000. You had $161,900,000.

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the purpose to which the previous appropriation of $161,900,000 is being devoted?

Gen. CROZIER. To the same class of purpose, in general, for which this additional appropriation is asked. Of this sum of $889,000,000, $530,000,000, about, is required for the field artillery for the equip ment of the second million men, which force we have not yet started to raise; $40,000,000 is to cover contract authorization in the act of June 15. Those two sums taken from the $899,000,000 leave about $329,000,000, which is for the purpose of supplying with artillery material the army of the first million men in things which were not adequately estimated for at the time that the act of June 15 was before Congress.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you please explain, General, what you mean by these two armies of a million men each? Do they include 2,000,000 men, all told, who will be first raised or does it include in addition to the million men the number of men required to keep the Army up to its proper strength?

Gen. CROZIER. It includes two forces of a million men each, each one of which will have to have a constant stream of recruits flowing

into it in order to keep it up. The first million men will be comprised of the Regular Army, the National Guard, and the National Army, as it has been called, and the second million men will be an additional national army. A million men, about, will be either in the service or called into the service by next month. In regard to the second million men no steps have yet been taken except their registration; but it is, I think, reasonable to suppose that they will be called into the service by next summer and will reach the status where they need the artillery. In order to have it ready by next summer we have to start getting it ready now.

I think I explained yesterday, in the general statement I made, the principal elements of the increase in the sums necessary to equip with artillery this first army of 1,000,000 men. The principal items of increase are 25 per cent to provide for artillery for depot battalions to be maintained in Europe as reserves for keeping fed up to strength the Army itself which will be carrying on the operations. Twenty-five per cent will be for the artillery for recruit battalions under training in the United States for the purpose of sending them over to form part of these reserve battalions and to be ultimately fed into the fighting force. When I say 25 per cent I mean 25 per cent of the artillery material which is needed for the fighting army itself of a million men., A part of the increase is due to the fact that we have made certain substitutions, after consultation with foreign officers, of heavier and consequently more expensive artillery for some of the lighter guns.

Mr. SHERLEY. Does the 9.5-inch howitzer bear the same relation to the 6-inch howitzer as the different sizes which you have heretofore had to bear to each other. As I recall your scheme, the gun bears a direct relationship to the weight of the projectile, and I wanted to know whether you were preserving that relationship?

Gen. CROZIER. Substantially, except we are skipping an intermediate.

Mr. SHERLEY. I was not concerned so much whether you were filling up the intermediate steps or advancing one or more steps, but whether you were keeping the same character of gradation.

Gen. CROZIER. We have kept the same character of gradation. The 9.5-inch howitzer would have double the power of the intermediate one which we have left out and the intermediate one we have left out would have double the power of the 6-inch howitzer which we have kept it.

Mr. SHERLEY. This is four times the 6-inch and the 6-inch is four times the 3.8-inch?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

In addition, we have added some trench mortars which were not in the scheme before. We have added some antiaircraft. teries for field use, which were not in the scheme before, and we have added some tractors for field artillery which were not in the scheme before. Those are the principal things.

Mr. SHERLEY. When you speak of the tractors do you mean the tanks?

Gen. CROZIER. No, sir. The tractors take the place of the horses. Mr. SHERLEY. Not guns at all?

Gen. CROZIER. No.

Mr. SISSON. For hauling the ammunition?

Gen. CROZIER. For hauling the ammunition and the guns themselves. The ammunition will be mostly supplied by automobile trucks.

Mr. SISSON. General, how many extra men would it take to man the 6-inch and the 9.5-inch guns as compared to the former gunsthe 3 and 4 inch?

Gen. CROZIER. Comparing the 6-inch howitzer with the 3.8-inch howitzer, of which it takes the place, as a rough guess, I should say not over twice the number of men, perhaps not that, because it depends a little bit on whether the particular battery were horsed or were provided with motor transportation. Of course, it would take a good many men, if horsed, to take care of the horses, but with motor trucks a much smaller number of men would be necessary. One or two men would look after as many motor trucks as would require three or four times that number if horsed.

Mr. SISSON. And the ammunition will require more men because of the increased weight?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; four times the weight of the other one. The manning of the battery would not call for men, I think, four times the number; I think an increase of 25 per cent would do.

Mr. SISSON. The cost of the ammunition for the larger gun would be very materially increased?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SISSON. About how much?

Gen. CROZIER. I suspect somewhat nearly in proportion to the weight of the projectile, perhaps not as high. I think, perhaps, three times. The cost of a complete round for the 3.8-inch howitzer is $21 and for the 6-inch howitzer is $46.

Mr. CANNON. I do not know whether it is in order at this time, but I would like to know this: It seems that you have estimates here for mines

Gen. CROZIER (interposing). I put in those estimates, but they come under the Chief of Coast Artillery.

Mr. CANNON. Then there are three estimates here on pages 105 and 106. Now, I would like to know just in the shape of a lump sum, taking into consideration what you have and then your estimates for additional appropriations-how much you need for the first million men, how much you need for the next half million men, and how much you need for the next half million men, making two million men. I want to know how much you need for the whole shooting match, and when you ought to have it-whether now or whether a part of it could be deferred?

Gen. CROZIER. Take the first one that you spoke of the first item on page 105. Now, I have not divided that for 500,000 men, but for the second million men, out of that $899,000,000, I would get $530000.000. That would be for the second million men.

Mr. CANNON. Five hundred and thirty million dollars of that is for the second million men?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. Do you need it now?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; I need the authorization for it now. because I have got to make contracts now.

The CHAIRMAN. General, there is one thing you ought to state before you pass on. You are also given authority to enter into con

tracts for $2,200,000 additional to the $40,000,000 carried in the fortification act.

Gen. CROZIER. That is right, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that money in here?

Gen. CROZIER. It is not, but it ought to be in here. In the act of February 14, $2,200,000 was authorized for contracts.

The CHAIRMAN. So that to meet all the obligations that you now contemplate it will require $2,200,000 in addition to this estimate? Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. To be provided as will be determined later?
Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. General, you received from the Army bill, the fortification bill, and the deficiency bill of June $171,900,000 for this purpose?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Now, you estimate, as I understand it, $329,000,000 of the present estimate of $899,000,000 as necessary to complete the program for the first million men that the $172,000,000 practically was intended for?

Gen. CROZIER. That is right.

Mr. SHERLEY. As I understand you, that $329,000,000 is due to the necessity for making provision for artillery for the reserve depots, for the remount for the recruit battalion, and for an increase in the character of field artillery or the substitution of heavier for lighter types?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; and a slight increase in number in some cases, but not very great. Now, right there, to make your question so that it will not mislead, you will notice that the $171,900,000 which you have spoken of and the $329,000,000, approximately, which I am asking for to complete the armament of the first million men, taken together, do not make $530,000,000, which I say is sufficient for the second million men.

Mr. SHERLEY. That is what I am coming to. That would leave you $530,000,000 for your second army, but from that must be subtracted $40,000,000 to take care of old contract obligations.

Gen. CROZIER. The $329,000,000, approximately, which we are now asking for and the $171,900,000 which I got in those other bills you have mentioned, together did not make all the money which I would have had for providing Artillery for the first 1,000,000 men, because for that purpose for a series of years back I have been getting some

money.

Mr. SHERLEY. I understand. So that there would have to be added to the cost of the first 1,000,000 men the value, or, if you wanted to keep your unit cost constant, the present cost of reproducing that artillery which you have on hand.

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. What would that amount to in round figures?
Gen. CROZIER. You could get it by taking this difference.

Mr. SHERLEY. Perhaps I can get it in another way: This $530,900,000, with the $40,000,000 for contract authorizations taken from it. will leave $490,000,000, representing the cost of the second 1,000,000 men.

In addition to that, we have a couple of steel-making plants whose management we are trying to get to accept an order involving the increase of their plants for the purpose of making gun forgings. We have not yet got to the point of having them do it because of the fact that although we have money enough to pay for the plant extensions, we have not money enough to give them large plant occupation thereafter in the way of making forgings in the plant. For the machining of the forgings into finished guns we are also at about the same point with reference to two companies with large machine shops whom we want to increase their machine-shop capacity. That ends a list of the establishments whom we have already set aside money for for enlargement of plants, including both those who have consented to it and are doing it and those who have not yet consented to do it.

In addition, we have two more plants which we would like to set to enlarging themselves for the manufacture of forgings, but for which we have not any money to pay for the enlargement nor to pay for the forgings manufactured there; and there are two more which we would like to set at the task of enlarging their capacity for machining guns and manufacturing them out of forgings furnished them, but for which we have no money to pay for either the enlargement of plant or for the machining of guns therein afterwards. Thus far I have spoken of the plant necessary to manufacture the artillery for these two forces of 1,000,000 men up to and including the 6-inch howitzer class. I have not mentioned any plant necessary either for manufacturing forgings or for machining forgings into guns of the classes of the 6-inch gun and the 93-inch howitzer, nor have I mentioned plants necessary for repairing and maintaining artillery in the hands of these two forces of 1,000,000 men. These last plants for repairs and maintenance are machining plants and are expected to be established in France. For the manufacture of forg ings for the 6-inch gun and the 93-inch howitzer I hope to be able to get the two established gun-forging manufacturing plants in this country whose enlargements were the ones I first spoke about to still further enlarge their plants for this last purpose, and I hope to enlarge the machining plant at the Watervliet Arsenal to machine at least the largest size of the pieces to be assigned to organizations which I have mentioned to you; that is, the 9-inch howitzer.

Mr. SHERLEY. General, as I recall in connection with testimony had in regard to seacoast fortifications as well as mobile artillery, the arsenals of the Government are practically booked with Government orders for 18 months or more; that was some months ago. Gen. CROZIER. Yes.

Mr. SHERLEY. So that you do not look to them to carry practically any of this load?

Gen. CROZIER. Very little of it. As I am just telling you, however, I contemplate using some of the funds for enlarging the capacity of the Watervliet Arsenal, and I also have an estimate, I think under armories and arsenals, for the enlargement of the Watervliet capacity.

Mr. SHERLEY. That is the only arsenal, as I recall, where the forg ings for the big guns were made into the guns?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes.