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Mr. ALLEx. From different offices. We borrowed some from the public moneys division, and some from loans and currency, but those details are temporary. They are subject to call at any minute, and we have been warned that they will be called back very soon, in which event we can not possibly keep our work up.

Mr. BYRNs. How long have you had those clerks?

Mr. ALLEX. We have had some of them about three or four weeks and others we have had two or three weeks. Some of the clerks we had borrowed have already been called back.

Mr. Byrns. You have explained why you needed those 30 clerks, but the estimate, as I understand it, is for 65 additional clerks.

Mr. ALLEN. They are for the other divisions.



Mr. ELLIOTT. Mr. Chairman, we have estimated that in our division we need 10 additional clerks, which is largely on account of the increased number of interest vouchers that we have to handle. I refer to the interest checks and coupons on account of the liberty loan that is being put out, and we have based our estimate on the minimum number that we think we can get along with, having in view only the $2,000,000,000 of liberty bonds that were issued under date of June 15. As you know, of course, it is contemplated that there will be issued an additional liberty loan, and possibly there will be one in the fall, but we have not considered that in making our estimate of the additional help we will have to have on account of handling the interest vouchers.

Mr. Byrns. Just what class of clerks do you need for that work under this estimate!

Mr. ELLIOTT. Well, we have estimated for two clerks at $1,600, two at $1,400, two at $1,200, two at $1,000, and two at $900. At the present time we have on this particular line of work, which is just one of the lines of work we handle in that division, three clerks-one at $1,600, one at $1,200, and one at $900. I think people employed

$ in that line of work should not be paid less than $1,200, but we have estimated for two at $1,000 and two at $900.

Mr. Byrns. How do you arrive at the estimate that you need 10 clerks for the additional work in connection with the liberty loan?

Mr. ELLIOTT. At the present time it is not possible to figure just exactly the number of holders of United States bonds who will have to present either checks or coupons for payment, but I have estimated-and I think the estimate is a very conservative one that we have about 100,000 holders of United States bonds at the present time, not considering the new liberty loan. For the fiscal vear ended June 30, 1916, we handled 540,028 interest vouchers, coupons, and checks, which are the last complete figures we have available.

Mr. BYRNs. With how many clerks? Mr. ELLIOTT. We had three clerks that were engaged on that line of work, and those three clerks were able to get the accounts tabulated and arranged and examined, and to send them over to the auditor within, say, a month's time after the close of the month preceding. Now, it has been estimated, as you no doubt know, that 4,000,000 people have subscribed to the new liberty loan. Those 4.000.000 people have gotten bonds in denominations from $50 up to the larger subscriptions, which run into the millions. Each one of those people will have to present at least one interest check or interest coupon twice each year in order to get his interest on his bonds. We will say that a man has several bonds—that he has $1,000 worth of bonds represented by two bonds of $500 each. He will present four coupons instead of two coupons for each $1,000 worth of bonds. The tendency of this loan has been to break up into very small pieces, and there have been a great many $50 and $100 bonds issued.

I understand that the Secretary has already had printed 4,000,000 coupon bonds for distribution to the public. That would entail the payment of 8,000,000 coupons each year, because they are payable seminnually, and I understand that they will order 1,000,000 more printed, because they do not think they will have enough. In addition to that, we must take care of the interest checks · of the holders of the registered bonds, which have to be handled also. We have estimated that the minimum number of additional interest vouchers (checks and coupons) that we will have to handle in the next 12 months will be 10,000,000 instead of the 540,000 we handled during the last fiscal year. That is an increase of 2,000 per cent in the number we will have to handle. We have to be very careful with the coupons; they are very small, about an inch wide by 2 inches long, at the maximum, and they are very easily lost. We have to handle them very carefully, because if we misplace one or lose one, then the auditor makes the Treasurer put up $17.50, or whatever amount it happens to call for.

Mr Byrxs. Now, it is very evident, of course, that we have not by any means reached the limit in the issuance of bonds.

Mr. ELLIOTT. No, sir.
Mr. Byens. We may not have even scratched the surface,

Mr. ELLIOTT. No, sir. We have made an estimate of 333 per cent increase in the force for handling this work, and, according to what I consider to be a conservative estimate, we are going to have an increase of 2,000 per cent in the volume of work coming in. In other words, instead of having 510,000 interest vouchers (checks and coupons) to handle, we will have 10,000,000 to handle on account of the $2,000,000,000 liberty loan already issued.

Mr. Byrxs. That is, taking into consideration only the issue already made of $2,000,000,000 ?

Mr. ELLIOTT. Yes, sir.
Mr. Byrxs. And it is not taking into

taking into consideration the $3,000,000,000 more provided for under that act, and it is very possible that there will be authorized a larger amount?

Mr. ELLIOTT. No, sir; it does not take that into consideraticn. We only took into consideration the $2,000,000,000 of bonds already issued under date of June 15. Those bonds began to bear interest on the 15th of June, and on the 15th of December, at the end of the first interest period, the coupons and interest checks will begin to come in from all parts of the country, to be paid by the Treasurer, to cover the interest on that $2,000,000,000 of the liberty loan.

Mr. Byrxs. It is evident that that will largely increase the work of your division, and, in view of that fact, don't you think that it would be the part of wisdom and economy to pursue every possible

in my

method in order, if possible, to devise some scheme for simplifying or systematizing the work incident to those bonds? With that idea

own mind, I was wondering why you have not taken this matter up with the efficiency commission, to see whether or not they could offer some suggestions, of which you might approve, which would enable you to handle this additional work, because, unless something of that sort is devised and we continue to issue bonds, as now seems to be very likely, it will necessarily increase the force of the office to a very great extent.

Mr. ELLIOTT. The efficiency commission made a very close esamination of the Treasurer's office, and several departmental committees have gone through the Treasurer's office and made a very searching examination, and various recommendations have been made.

Mr. ByRx's. That was with reference to the work or the business of the office heretofore, and not with particular regard to this increased work of which we are now talking.

Mr. ELLIOTT. There will be no change in the character of the work at all, and the same conditions that these committees who investigated the office, including the efficiency coinmission, found and passed upon will obtain in this additional work that will come. We will follow the same methods that have been followed and have been found efficient. The departmental committees and the efficiency commission gave the office close scrutiny, as you know, and they suggested some changes that we have made, and we have made some changes ourselves. But the character of the work remains the same, and it is just an increase in the volume of the work.

Mr. Byrns. As I understand, your present work is current, and these clerks are asked for owing to the increased work brought on by the issuance of these bonds?

Mr. ELLIOTT. Yes, sir. Of course, we have had quite an increase of work incident to the redemption of certificates of indebtedness, but we have handled them by means of temporary employees obtained from the Liberty Loan fund—the appropriation that accompanied the authorization for the issuance of the Liberty bonds.

Mr. Byrns. That work, of course, is merely temporary?

Mr. Elliott. Yes, sir; we are still working on it, though; but we have handled all of the certificates of indebtedness

Mr. Byrx's (interposing). And you are not asking for any permanent clerks for that work?

Mr. ELLIOTT. No, sir; that is all temporary work.


Mr. BYRNS. Then there are 25 more clerks in addition to those referred to?

Mr. Gates. In the redemption division we handle the old and mutilated money as it is sent in from the banks for redemption. It is of the utmost importance to the work of the banks of the country that this money should be handled quickly and efficiently and returns made to them, because if the money is kept out of circulation the banks do not have it with which to transact their regular business. As a comparison of the work, in July, 1916, we handled 10,760,703 notes in that division, and in this last July we handled 16,155,280 notes, an increase of 50 per cent. This rate of increase holds good

for each month since the breaking out of war. We did this with the same force, and we did it by improving in every possible way the efficiency of the force and the methods that we were using, as well as by curtailing the leave of our employees. But now we find ourselves simply overwhelmed by the volume of the work coming in; we can not even keep it current by denying leave to the employees. In addition to that we have an increasing sick list. One of the peculiarities of our division is that we employ a large number of ladies, and the ages of the ladies doing this counting may be of interest to you, in that 37 per cent of them are over 50 years


cent are over 60 years of age, and 10 per cent are over 70 years of age. Yet we have to deny leave to these ladies, who sit there day by day and count this old, worn, and evil-smelling money. It is a heartless task to force them to do it, and yet we have done that in order to try to keep this work current for the banks.

Mr. BYRNS. How do you account for such a large increase?

Mr. GATES. Whenever there is an increase in the business of the country we feel it at once. Whenever you have a good many more people wearing out money, by having it constantly in circulation, that money comes right back to our division. We are intimately in touch with the business of the banks of the country from one end to the other.

Mr. BYRNs. You are asking for 15 counters?
Mr. GATES. Yes.
Mr. BYRNS. How many have you now?

Mr. Gates. Eighty-four, with an average of probably 12 sick of the 84. In doing this work we are using counters who really belong to the laundry bureau. We handle the laundry machines in our office and we have had to shut them down in order to take advantage of the services of these women who ordinarily count the laundered money on the common redemption work. The laundry work is now some 20 days behind and our redemption work will average, perhaps, about two days behind.

Mr. BYRNS. That is practically current, is it not?

Mr. GATES. No. If I would bring the laundry work up so that it was nearly current, our redemption work would not be anywhere near current. I am holding in stock over $6,00,000 worth of notes that have been saved out of the mutilated notes for the laundry. Those notes are urgently needed now in circulation. The cashier is asking for them in order to put them in circulation, and we ought to have them there.

Mr. Byrns. I thought that all of the laundry work was being done at the subtreasuries?

Mr. GATES. No, sir; all of the subtreasuries, or rather some of them, have laundries, but this is work done right here in the Treasurer's office. As these old notes come in we pick out the notes still fit for circulation and set them aside and launder them. I would call this to your attention, that if we are to hold this work anywhere nearly current it must be done by not giving these women their leave and without having them lose a minute in their work on any day, and the force can not stand it because of their age and their condition.

Mr. Byrus. Several of you gentlemen have referred to the question of leave. Leave is dated from the beginning of the fiscal year, and the 30 days’ leave must be taken during the fiscal year?

Mr. GATES. No; from January to January with us.
Mr. Byrns. The calendar year?
Mr. GATES. Yes, sir.

Mr. Byrxs. Do I understand that none of the clerks which you and the other gentlemen have spoken about have had any leave since January?

Mr. GATEs. Here and there are isolated cases, where the situation was such that it absolutely demanded it, but, as a general rule, they have had only a day now and then when absolutely necessary, and, as a matter of fact, I have not had a time in a week since the 1st of January when I felt authorized to give extended leave to any of my clerks.

Mr. ELLIOTT. I would like to say, in regard to the clerks in my division, that before the war broke out quite a number of them get a portion of their leave; none of them got their full leave, but quite a number of them got a portion of their leave. However, since the war broke cut and we had to curtail the leave they have gotten no more leave, although, as Mr. Allen stated a moment ago, the summer months is the time when most of the clerks take their vacations.


Mr. Byrns. Now, 10 more clerks are asked for?

Mr. Warner. The section of bookkeeping of the Division of General Accounts asks for four, the warrant section of the same division asks for four, and the cashier asks for two; this, of course, owing to the work having increased, just like it has increased in the other divisions—the natural growth and the extraordinary growth on account of war conditions.

Mr. BYRNS. Just state what class of clerks you desire?

Mr. Warner. The chief of the warrant section asks for 3 clerks, at $1,200, and 1 typist, at $900; the bookkeeping section asks for 1 clerk, at $1,600, and 3, at $1,200, and the cashier asks for 2, at $1.200.

Mr. Byrns. With reference to the four clerks in the bookkeeping section, why is it you need them?

Mr. WARNER. The ordinary increase in the work and the extraordinary increase on account of the war. That is the division where they prepare the daily statement of the condition of the Treasury. which is very intricate and requires very high-grade bookkeepers

, A clerk at $1.600 is needed for that high-grade work, and it would not be safe to intrust the average clerk with that kind of work-the kind of clerk we get for $1,200 per annum. I will say in this connection that there was one time, when they changed the form suddenly, that the chief, assistant chief, and one of the $1,600 clerks, a woman, worked from 8 o'clock until the following 8 o'clock the next morning, having their meals sent in to them. It is very intricate work, and if there would be an error made in that, it would be rather distressing, because it is scrutinized from one part of the country.!" the other, it being the daily statement as to the condition of the Treasury.

Mr. Byrns. As I understand it, that work must be kept current?

Mr. WARNER. Yes; they worked all night long, the three of them. two men and a woman.

Mr. Bynxs. Is that because they failed to get a balance?

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