Gen. CROZIER. The last statement is unodubtedly true in regard to their equipment either with the standard or a commercial article as soon as they come into the service. There are one or two articles in regard to which there may be a shortage. The bayonet scabbard situation is not quite as good as I should like to see it in the matter of promptness of supply, and there may be a period in training men when a man will have to carry his bayonet in some other way than in a scabbard, but they will be equipped before they go abroad, even the National Guard troops.

Mr. SHERLEY. As to all the personnel that carries pistols, will you able to supply the Regulars and the National Guard with them? Gen. CROZIER. I am not perfectly sure of that.

Mr. SHERLEY. When we come to the National Army, the six hundred and odd thousand drafted men

Gen. CROZIER (interposing). Right there, Mr. Sherley. I think you place the National Army too high, because all above 500,000 will go into the Regular Army and the National Guard--what I have already spoken of as the Regular Army and the National Guard.

Mr. SHERLEY. What we are doing is carrying in mind in perhaps not the most scientific way three groups of men because of the different situation, in a broad sense, that confronts us. The Regulars, presumably, are trained, equipped men, who, whether here or abroad, have their full equipment. The National Guard, presumably, are reasonably equipped men, because as members of the National Guard they were entitled to receive and did receive certain quantities of personal equipment, and then the National Army, which comes as civilians without any equipment, except what may be given them when they come to the camp. So I have designated them in that general way, because it is the way that the average Member of Congress will be thinking of them.

What I am trying to ascertain is this: When these drafted men come into the service in September and perhaps some of them later, but in the first draft, whether you are going to be in a position to equip them fully, and if not fully, whether you will be in a position to so equip them as to in no material sense delay their training, and whether, after that training has gone to the point where they are ready for service abroad, you will then be in a position to send them with this personal equipment, fully equipped?

Gen. CROZIER. I do not believe, Mr. Sherley, that we will be able to send them fully equipped.

Mr. SHERLEY. I am not talking about the Field Artillery at all. Gen. CROZIER. I do not believe that we will be able to send them fully equipped as soon as they would otherwise be ready to go. but I do think that we will be able to send them fully equipped as soor as we will be able to send them at all; get them over there.

Mr. SHERLEY. In other words, the delay that will be incident to the limitation upon transportation will be such as to enable you, by the time they can be actually transported, to fully equip them?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir: I think so. If they could be transported as soon as they would be otherwise ready, we could not equip them. Mr. SHERLEY. Presumably, it will take three or four months of training here as the minimum, before the department would feel disposed to send them abroad. Do you anticipate that by the middle of January you can fully equip them?

Gen. CROZIER. I think before that time we shall have them all fully equipped. We have been informed recently that the period of training at home which has been found desirable for the English troops, now that they have training which they can get in France, has been very much curtailed and takes no longer than three or four months, but has been cut down to something not more than half that time.

Mr. SHERLEY. Two months.

Gen. CROZIER. The ordinary statement is nine weeks at home and nine days in France before they are ready for the firing line.

The CHAIRMAN. They are building these cantonments on the theory that they are going to occupy them for a considerable time?

Gen. CROZIER. That short period of training to which I referred results, of course, from their having an opportunity to fill their organizations with a great many men who have been through the mill, which we would not have.

Mr. SHERLEY. That presents an entirely different proposition. Of course, with an existing organization where you are simply feeding in those supports, you can feed in those supports in a period of much less training that you could create an entirely new organization. I have in mind the creation of a new organization, because, presumably, at least 500,000 of the drafted men are being drafted with the idea of creating new organizations, and the others, the one hundred thousand-odd more in the subsequent drafts are supposed to be for the supports of the organizations heretofore created. As to these organizations, you do not have in mind that they can be trained so as to be in a position to be sent abroad in anything like nine weeks?

Gen. CROZIER. No; I do not think they can.

Mr. SHERLEY. That would be a matter of some three months as the minimum?

Gen. CROZIER. Probably; yes, sir. I am not certain.

Mr. SHERLEY. To put my question in another way, will there be any need of slowing up in the sending of troops abroad or the training of troops here, having in mind that I am not now speaking of Field Artillery at all, because of your inability to supply those troops with personal equipment?

Gen. CROZIER. I do not think so.

Mr. SHERLEY. The equipment that comes from the Ordnance Bureau?

Gen. CROZIER. I do not think so.

SUPPLY OF ORDNANCE EQUIPMENT.

Mr. SHERLEY. General, I think it would be desirable to have you make a very brief statement for the record as to the line that separates your crops from the Quartermaster's Corps in regard to the equipment that goes to the individual soldier?

Gen. CROZIER. In regard to what the soldier has, it can be stated in general terms that the Ordnance Department furnishes the arms and ammunition and the personal and horse equipment, and the Quartermaster's Department furnishes the clothing and equipment which is not personal. In regard to some of the things, it is a little difficult to say simply from naming the articles in which class it will fall; the division is a little bit artificial. Of course, everybody knows

what is meant by arms and ammunition. The ammunition for ar Infantry or Cavalry man has to be carried in the cartridge belt. and therefore the Ordnance Department furnishes the cartridge belt. The cartridge belt is fitted to the ammunition. Then the cartridge belt has certain articles of equipment attached to it, for instance. the pack carrier, in which the soldier carries his personal belongings, his tooth brush and certain articles of clothing that he carries with him. His blanket is attached to his person by straps which pass over his shoulder and fasten to the cartridge belt. The pack carrier is included in the equipment which the Ordnance Department furnishes. The articles of his field-mess equipment, namely, his knife, fork, spoon, canteen, meat-ration can, cup, and certain other little articles that we need not mention have to be fitted into the pack. and also some hung onto the cartridge belt. Therefore, in order that they shall all accord the Ordnance Department furnishes them also. Similarly about his person and fitted in his pack carrier are his intrenching tools. A great portion of the soldiers carry a small pick. a certain portion carry a shovel, and a certain portion carry wire cutters, which may not be intrenching tools, but they are used in connection with trench work. As to the wire, it is usually the enemy's trench that is in mind then. Those things have to be carried about in a particular place in this pack and therefore one department designs the pack and also furnishes those things.

The CHAIRMAN. Assuming that this National Army is called and comes in on the 15th of September, would you be prepared to supply them with the equipment which they must have at the time they enter training?

Gen. CROZIER. In order to maintain themselves, yes; either of the standard variety or a commercial variety. That is to say, if we do not have this meat ration can, which separates into a platter and plate, they can be furnished commercially as long as they are in

camp.

The CHAIRMAN. If 500.000 are called to come in September 15, would you be in a position to supply them with those things, or would it be necessary to defer calling a part of them because of your inability to supply the things which they must have to maintain themselves?

Gen. CROZIER. I think we can supply a man with the things that he must have to maintain himself.

Mr. SHERLEY. There is quite a bit of war equipment-this is still outside the field of Field Artillery-that you furnish. For instance. hand grenades and a number of other offensive weapons that are used by the soldier. Are you in a position to furnish the troops of the Regular Army with all of such equipment?

Gen. CROZIER. No, sir. For the proper supply of some of that equipment we will have to draw on the capacity of our allies in the beginning.

Mr. SHERLEY. So that not being in a position to supply the Regu lars fully, it is needless, of course, to ask whether you would be in a position to supply the other ones?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Presumably, as to the use of some of this equipment there will be need of a certain quantity for the training of the National Guard and the drafted men?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. To what extent will you be in a position to supply them, as early as they will be in a position to undergo certain training, assuming that they are called into the camps about the middle of September?

Gen. CROZIER. NO; we will not be in a position to thoroughly supply them with everything of that kind. That training requires a great deal of practice with live bombs, and the number we should like to have for that purpose we will not have.

ORDNANCE SERVICE, CURRENT EXPENSES.

The CHAIRMAN. For ordnance service you have had so far $3,000,000, and you are asking $1,825,000 additional.

Gen. CROZIER. Yes. Mr. Chairman. Ordnance service is that which relates very largely to the receipt, storage, and issue of all sorts of ordnance stores and supplies. In time of peace these go on at a moderate rate, but in time of war, of course, the rate increases very highly. There is a great deal of augmentation of the handling of stores, handling them in and out of our own storage places, handling them to and from transportation agencies, and handling them with reference to their issue to the troops. This involves storage, probably rental of storage space, employees of all kinds, clerical and others, for making out invoices, bills of lading, requisitions, etc., and the actual handling of the material. It is something, of course, that it would not do to be short of when active operations are going on, and I do not think that the amount we have will last us through the first of the war. I am very doubtful whether, even with the amount we are asking now, we can get through the first year of the war; but if not, I presume we will have another chance to show what our needs

are.

The CHAIRMAN. The appropriations for ordnance proposed in these estimates would hardly be handled during this fiscal year, would they?

Gen. CROZIER. I hope so. I hope a great deal will be handled during this fiscal year. You see, we have to issue arms and ammunition and equipment first of all for the new troops that are raised, and, second, we have to handle it in and out of storage places for men across the sea, and then we have to handle it over on the other side in and out of the port of disembarkation and in and out of the depots of supply that have to be established in France for the use of our troops. So that the handling of the stores we have on hand, as well as those we expect, to get with the appropriations which have been made available, has to commence at once; in fact, it has commenced already, of course.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you estimate that $1,825,000 additional will be needed?

Gen. CROZIER. It is pretty hard to make an estimate, Mr. Chairman. I can say that this estimate I have made is intended to cover the whole fiscal year, although it may not do so. I could let that $825,000 go and make it $1,000,000 if I could be certain I would get another appropriation not later than December, if I needed it. This is the kind of appropriation where an authorization to incur obligations is not of any use.

The CHAIRMAN. No; but from the information you have you believe that the entire sum will be required within this fiscal year? Gen. CROZIER. Yes: I think it will all be required within this fiscal year, but, of course, it is a very difficult matter to make an estimate so far in advance. The most expensive part of the organization to expend this money has not yet been made. These troops are not even in cantonments yet, the depots that are to serve them have not been established, the necessity for making the large shipments to and from those depots has not yet commenced; the organization for getting these stores to the ocean and across the ocean and into the hands of the troops in France has not yet been made, and it requires some time to imagine what those organizations will be and estimate the amount of funds the organizaions will need.

The CHAIRMAN. So you have no doubt you will not only require this much money, but if the operations are carried on more extensively additional funds will be required?

Gen. CROZIER. I think probably more will be required, and if this were my last chance before the end of the fiscal year I would make this estimate larger; but inasmuch as I expect another chance in December, I would say that I could make this smaller now by $800,000. but I would be very positive that that would not carry us through to the end of the year.

SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION-HAND, RIFLE, AND AEROPLANE GRENADES.

The CHAIRMAN. "For manufacture and purchase of ammunition for small arms and for hand use for reserve supply, $39,520,000." You had $131,048,000 in the deficiency act.

Gen. CROZIER. Yes. This is the best kind of a heading I could get to put that estimate under, but it does not really convey the right idea. It is for the purpose of procuring hand grenades and rifle grenades and aeroplane grenades. I suppose you might call them, bombs, etc., to be dropped from aeroplanes. It is ammunition, part of which is fired from a rifle, namely, the rifle grenade, and the rest is handled by hand. The hand grenades are thrown by hand and the bombs dropped from aeroplanes may be thrown out by hand or cast loose by a releasing device, and therefore I have put it under this heading of "Ordnance stores, ammunition," although it is not for small-arms ammunition.

The CHAIRMAN. Have any of the appropriations heretofore made contemplated expenditures for the same purpose?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes; I made some explanation when I was last before you with reference to that. The Army bill of last May and the deficiency act of June 15 contained appropriations applicable to this purpose which aggregated nearly $5.000.000, but this is additional to that sum.

The CHAIRMAN. This is a very considerable increase. Is this to establish a supply for an army of 1,000,000 men or 2.000.000 men, and for what period of time?

Gen. CROZIER. This is intended only for an army of 1,000,000 men. It is a large increase, and the explanation of that is the information which we have had as to the greater use of this kind of material than we had expected. We thought that the appropriation of $5,000,000 was a good appropriation, but we have had estimates from the members of the military missions from the other side that indicate that