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Mr. RILEY. — Independence is a bad thing.
Ild. FOTTLER. — Especially in politics.
Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Now, doctor, you believed what you heard, or

you didn't ?

A. Mrs. Dacey might have had a perfect right to be in the room. Mr. RILEY. - No, answer my question — yes or no.

Ald. LEE, Now, Mr. C'hairman, it seems to me that we have gone on in this way long enough. I want to say that if there is any one thing that I regret during this whole investigation it is the dragging of that lady's name in here, dragging her through the nud, and smirching her good name and character. Any man who knows Mrs. Dacey knows that she is as honest a womal; as ever lived on earth. Now, Mr. Riley is dragging her name in here again, and I don't believe in it. I object tv any further examination upon that point. Let the committee determine as to the truth of that statement from the testimony which is now before them. It may be that Mrs. Whitney may have said so to Dr. Cogswell to injuure her. It may be that there was some other motive. It may be that that notive was against VIcCaffrey. It may be that; but, Mr. Chairman, in the name of God, don't again drag that honest woman's name in the mud here, ils it has been dragged in before ; and I am going to ask before this investigation closes that that may be stricken from these records. It is unfair to the lady, who is not here to answer for herself; and I feel satisfied and know that Mr. Riley don't desire it. He don't want it. Dr. Cogswell says he cannot answer the question as it has been put to hiru by Mr. Riley, and that he wants to explain. Now, if there is any explanation to make, let us go into executire session and keep it out of the records here. Nou, Mr. Chairman, I believe enough has been said about that question. When we come to consider these things, we will take it into consideration and gire it whatever weight we think it is entitled to. I trust that Mr. Riley will not press that question and again hare that good woman's name dragged in here and place in these records any more.

Mr. RILEY. Shake not thy gory locks at me, but rather at the witness.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Mr. Witness, haren't you observed, haven't you all along understood, that I didn't mention any lady's name? Will you

A. I haven't observed either one way or the other. Q. Did I mention any lady's name since I began to examine you? 1. I don't think you did.

Q. Why did you repeat the lady's name here and add insult to injury

11. If I didn't repeat the lady's name, Mr. Riley, the explanation that I gave might have applied to anybody.

Q. You thought you were doing a manly thing to repeat the name, d. Why, certainly, if I am going to explain anythingQ. You have answered the question. A. (Continuing) - I must tell who it refers to. Q. You have answered it. Now, then, did you believe what was told you in reference to that lady?

4. Certainly I did. Q. You did? ul. Certainly.

Q. That is enough. You have inswered my question, and I will leave you just where you leave yourself, so far as this examination is concerned.

4. Well

Mr. RILEY. No, sir; yon camot explain now. You will have to explain later.


did you?

Ald. LEE. I am going to ask him to explain now. Explain what you wish to, doctor.

Mr. RILEY. Why, he said he believed it to be true.
Ald. LEE. Well, he wanted to give an explanation. Let him do it
Mr. RILEY. That can easily be done when I get through with him
Ald. LEE. Well, I ask that question now.
Mr. RILEY. Of course, if the committee so vote.
Ald. LEE. Well, 1 ask that privilege as a member of this committee.

Mr. RILEY. — But still, I have enough to do to contend with the lawyers on the other side, without having any addition to their number.

Ald. LEE. Now, I want to ask him to make that explanation ; and I don't want you to mention the lady's name.

The CHAIRMAN. – The Chair will accord the Alderman that privilege.

The WITNESS. - I believed it because there was not any reason why I should disbelieve it. I never looked into the matter, and there wasn't any reason why under certain circumstances she should not have had a perfect right to go in there. We don't know whether she went in there and stayed over two minutes or not. If she was on night work there was no reason why she shouldn't go in and consult Mr. McCaffrey if anything happened.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) He was your assistant ?
A. Yes; and she might have gone in to consult him.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Now, the Alderman's conduct is all right, and it leads me to take another step in the same direction. Who gave you the information ?

(No response.)
Q. You look at me, but you don't answer.
A. No; I have got done giving names. (Laughter and applause.)
Q. But you did give the name the other night?
Ă. Yes, and you picked me up for repeating it to-night.
Q. No — you gave another name the other night, did you not?
d. In regard to what?
Q. Didn't you mention the name of another woman?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you hear another woman's name mentioned ?
2. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the name you heard mentioned ?
A. No, sir.
Q. What was the name you heard mentioned !
11. I am not going to answer that.
Q. Oh, you must.
A. Oh, no.
Q. Oh, yes.
A. Oh, no.

Q. Well, if you run this investigation, all right; but we will determine that right now.

A. All right.
Q. Will you answer?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why?

Ă. Because I don't think it is right. I don't think it is right giving her name.

Q. I know, but the other name is the name of a lady as pure and chaste as any that ever entered under your roof. The one I am speaking about now is a woman of another sort, as you know.

A. I don't, sir.
Q. What?
A. I don't.
Q. Was it a woman who gave you the information ?
A. It seems to me you are drifting a little, Mr. Riley.

Q. It seems to one that you are. Was it a woman that gave you the information?

4. That gave me the information on what ?

Q. It seems to me that you have got to the point where you are not going to run the thing.

4. Now, Mr. Riley, there is where you and I cliffer. I never tried to.

The CHAIRMAN. - Haven't we got that information in the proceedings, Mr. Riley? Mr. RILEY. Why it is only to lead up to something else. Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Why are you keeping back the other name? A. I am not. Q. Will you give it! A. No, sir. Q. Then you are keeping it back? d. No, sir. Q. What are you doing? 4. I gave it. Q. What is it? A. If you will look in the records, you will see. Q. Was it a woman from Deer Island ? (No response.) Q. What is the trouble, doctor? 1. Nothing. Q. Why don't you answer? Å. Because I don't propose to. Q. Why didn't you say you didn't propose to answer? A. I said so before. Q. Was it anybody in your employ? (No response. Q Doctor, what is the trouble with you ?

A. I was just going to shift my leg up there, so as to l'est it on the rung of the chair. (Laughter.)

Q. You are shifting all over ?
A. Not a bit.

Mr. PROCTOR. — The trouble is you have been trying to pull his other leg, Mr. Riley. _(Laughter.)

R. (By Mr. RILEY.) Doctor, was it a woman who told you ?

A. Now, there is no use talking. You might as well know it now. I will not answer any of those questions.

Q. Oh, you must.
A. Oh, no.

Q. Or else I will ask the committee to strike out all of your testimony, even to the long statement which you made.

d. Perhaps they wouldn't do it if you asked them.
Mr. RILEY. — Perhaps you know about it; but I doubt it.

The CHAIRMAN. — Doctor, such questions as it is proper for you to answer the committee will be pleased if you will answer; and the committee will try to protect you from questions which it is not proper to


The WITNESS. — Well, my ground is this, that he got up here -
The CHAIRMAN. — Well, that we don't care to argue.

The last question, I think, that Mr. Riley asked you was if your informer was an employee of yours. Wasn't that your last question ?

Mr. RILEY. — Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That seems to me to be a proper question, and one to be answered without mentioning iny names. Will you answer that question, whether or not your informer was in your employ ? The WITNESS. – Now, the informer on what? Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Do you lack intelligence in that respect ?

A. Well, I should like to be a little clear on that point.
Q. What do you think I have been asking you ?

A. Just what I say. You said we wouldn't mention any names, and therefore we have got to get at it in a roundabout manner.

Q. What do you think the subject matter was? Don't you know?

A. Not since you asked another question. You see, according to my idea, you have drifted off of one subject, and now we have got on to something else. I may be mistaken.

Q. Your idea is not a sound one, not a good one.
A. Then you will have to explain it to me, so that it may be sound.

Q. Why, I asked you in regard to your belief of a certain statement, and you said you believed it. I then asked you for the name of the pary who informed you and gave you the information, and you refused to give that. Now, then, my question is: Was that party in your employ?

A. °If I remember correctly, you asked me about some lady going into his room.

Q. Was that person in your employ?

À. I think he asked me about some other lady going into his room, Mr. Chairman.

Q. I must have an answer. Was that person in your employ?
A. If you mean

Q, I must have an answer to that question. Was the person who gave you the information in your employ?

A. Do you mean by “information"

Q. Well, now, if you please; yes or no. Was that person in your employ?

Ā. Well, Mr. Chairman, just a moment.

Mr. RILEY. · No, you are trying your old tricks, but they won't do. I insist upon an answer, or else you must refuse to go on at all.

The CHAIRMAN. – It seems plain to the Chair that the question under discussion is, that in your former testimony you made some remarks in relation to a woman; and the question that Mr. Riley puts to you is whether the information that you gained was given to you by a person in your employ!

Mr. PROCTOR. Does the Chairman presume to answer the question of the witness before the witness asks it?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, the Chair is trying to explain the question that Mr. Riley put to him in hopes that it won't be necessary to drag in here the name of an innocent person.

Mr. PROCTOR. But I understood the witness to appeal to the Chair with some question ; and I had assumed that that was a proper thing to do.

The CHAIRMAN. If the witness cannot understand now, with the explanation made by the Chair, the Chair is willing to answer any question from the witness.

Mr. PROCTOR. I knew you would be.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Now, was that person in your employ yes or no?

A. I think, if I understand the chairman correctly, he has allowed me to ask him a question.


The WITNESS. If I am to understand by the word “information" that that word refers to a circumstance which I said that a certain party reported to me as having occurred within her knowledige some time last year in relation to two employees on Long Island whose names have been mentioned together by me at a recent hearing — you see, there are a good

many things Mr. RILEY. — (Interrupting.) Why don't you ask the question of the chairman and be done with it.

You may

The WITNESS. · I have.
The CHAIRMAN, Go on, Mr. Witness.
Mr. PROCTOR. Go on, doctor.

The CHAIRMAN. – I think the witness understands the question, from the question which he asks.

Mr. RILEY. I didn't understand what he asked you.
The WITNESS. On that ground –
Mr. RILEY. — No, if you please

No, if you please — I don't care to have your explanation.

The WITNESS. (Continuing.) — the word information ” resting

that way

Mr. ŘILEY. - No, no, this is not the time to give in explanation.

The WITNESS. - (Continuing.)- I say that the information was given to me by an employee.

Mr. ŘILEY. - No, sir you must answer the question or refuse to do

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The WITNESS. – Why, I was answering it.

Mr. RILEY. No, sir; you cannot do it in that way. I don't care about your reasons at all. I want yes or no. Was your informer in the employ of the city at the time

yes or no? The WITNESS. - Now, at which time? Ald. LEE. – Now, you ought to be fair with this witness.

Mr. RILEY. - This witness is not going to escape me. I am going to have an answer to my questions.

Ald. LEE. — Well, we are all going to get it, and not drag anybody in the mire, either.

Mr. RILEY. Well, he is going to answer me by yes or no.
Ald. LEE. -But he says that he cannot do it that way.
Mr. RILEY. — Well, he must.

Ald. LEE. Well, now, Mr. Chairman, I think I have set here and allowed this thing to go on long enough, and so I will try to aid him.

Mr. RILEY. Take care that you don't aid him in dragging anybody in the mire.

Ald. LEE. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am not dragging anybody in the mire.

Mr. RILEY. - - No; I didn't say you were. I say, take care that you don't.

Ald. LEE. Well, I will do what I think just right as a member of this committee, no matter what you say, Mr. Riley. (Applause.) You cannot drive me one inch. NOW, Nr. Chairman, the bullyragging that the witness has been receiving from the hands of Mr. Riley is unfair and unjust; and I am somewhat surprised, Mr. Chairman, that we as a committee, and you as chairman, have sat here and allowed it to go on so long. Why don't you ask him if this person who told him that a certain nurse was seen coming from an employce's room was a mation there? That is fair. I don't know what Mr. Riley is trying to get out of the witness, but if he wants to get something out of him that is proper and to lead him up to something else, why, all right; but I won't sit here and allow him to cast any reflections upon me as a member of this committee. I have stood it quite long enough, and I am not going to stand it again. (say again that I don't care any more for Mr. Riley than I do for anybody else who walks into this room. Now, I will ask the privilege of asking the witness a question is a member of this committee. I want to ask you if you testified here that you were informed by one of your assistants down there that some one of your officers was seen going into a nurse's room?

The WITNESS. — No, sir that the nurse was seen coming out of the employee's room.

2. (By Ald. LEE.) Now, let me ask you if it was one of the matrons then down there that gave you that information ?



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