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A. No, sir.

Q. Take the case of a valise, that, when opened, contained infected clothing; why wouldn't the valise be infected, also?

A. It isn't the nature of the germ of the disease.

Q. Why?

A. I couldn't tell you why. Why does the sun rise? (Laughter.)

Q. Well, that is my point. I believe the sun doesn't rise.


A. It sets.

Q. I don't think it sets, either. I think it is the earth that moves. A. Well, why does the earth move, then ?

Q. Well, take the case of infected clothing coming from a European country, and the valise being also from a European country. Now, why might not the valise be infected, as well as the clothing? A. Well, simply because the cholera germ would not or does not stick to anything of that nature.

Q. Of what nature?


Of a valise or trunk — anything that is dry.

Q. Why, it will stick to woollen or cotton clothing, will it not?

A. Yes; but the clothing is not on the outside of the valise -— not generally. (Laughter.)

Q. What?

A. I say the clothing is not generally on the outside of the valise. Q. What you mean to say is that the germ will not stick to the leather.

A. I mean that anything that is dry and exposed to the air for any length of time, the cholera germ would not be there.

Q. I know, but it would be on the inside?

A. That is just what I say; and they didn't handle that.

Q. Who opened the valises ?

A. I opened them, or the employees at Galloup's. A great many times we didn't open the baggage at all.

Q. You mean to say that you allowed the prisoners to carry the baggage, but that you or those under you opened it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that you took good care that the prisoners should not touch the clothing?

A. As far as I was there. Of course, I can only answer for the time when I was present.

Q. But if your employees were to open the packages and inspect the clothing, pray tell me why you needed the prisoners to carry the packages?

A. Why, I might not hesitate about opening a trunk or a large box that weighed two or three hundred pounds; but I would hesitate about carrying that same thing.

Q. I know, but you had the employees of the city to carry it ?

A. Not on the boat; no, sir.

Q. You didn't?

4. No, sir; and as far as that is concerned, all the employees that were on the boat took hold and helped to handle the baggage and to carry it.

Q. At all events, you did have the prisoners carry the baggage, and they afterwards went in and mingled with the other prisoners?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it didn't trouble you at all?

A. No, sir; it didn't.

Q. Now, while you were on Deer Island - I think it was during the years 1890 and 1891 was the gas cut off?

A. Well, I couldn't say as to the date, but the gas was cut off while I was there.

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I would not want to say; but it was more than a week.

Q. And during that time lamps were used in all the departments ? Is that so?

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A. I don't know, sir. I think there was some trouble with the retort, but as to that I couldn't say.

Q. That is, the retorts would not supply the institution?

A. I think they were building them down there; but you know I was not so very conversant with that matter.

Q. No, but you complained of the thing at the time, if my information is correct.

A. Well, my remembrance is that I didn't. I don't think that I complained any more than a man naturally would kick at a thing of that kind.

Q. Well, you don't know any reason why that should have happened unless it was due to the parsimony of the management?

A. Well, I would not want to say as to that. There are others that will be probably more conversant with that subject than I am.

Q. I only wanted to get at the fact.

A. The fact is that we were without gas,

As I remember, the retort

burned out, and they went to work and fixed it up as soon as they could. I think they went at it right away.

Q. Now, in regard to the dealing with the burial of the dead. Isn't it true that the paupers and the prisoners were buried together?

A. I don't know, sir.

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No, sir, I don't.

Q. Wasn't your attention called to the dead at all?

A. Not enough to tell whether the paupers and prisoners were buried together or not. I couldn't say.

Q. Well, quite enough to satisfy you that they were buried in batches; isn't that so?

A. My impression is that there were quite a number buried at one time. I never saw them bury anybody down there.

Q. How many dead bodies did you see at a time there?

A. I couldn't tell you that. They have a receiving-tomb there, and

I have seen quite a number in there at one time.

Q. Well, you knew that they used to keep those bodies a long time ? A. Why, certainly; yes, sir.

Q. Why was that?

A. I suppose so that there friends could come and claim them.

Q. Did you limit that to five days?

A. No, sir; that was on Long Island.

Q. On Long Island you keep them five days?

A. No, sir; we bury them.

Q. But they used to keep them for two months on Deer Island, didn't


A. I couldn't tell you.

Q. Well, for a long time?

A. Well, I don't know anything about their burials on Deer Island.

The only thing that I know is that one time I saw them digging a large grave in which they said they were going to bury some bodies.

Q. Well, it was a trench P

A. About seven feet square.

Q. They tumbled the bodies in?


I don't know anything about it.

Q. Who did the digging?

A. The prisoners.


Did you notice whether they were smoking?

A. No, sir, I didn't.

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A. I don't know. They were digging- they were not burying them.

Q. Do you know whether they held any religious services over the dead?

A. No, sir, my impression is that they used once in a while to have a service there at the island; but I am not familiar enough with it to swear as to it.

Q. While you were at the island, what did the discipline appear to be - all right?

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Well, I think it was along in 1891, the summer of 1891. I shouldn't want to swear to that.

Q. Were you reported for insubordination ?


I don't think that I was.

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A. No, sir, it was not.

Q. What was it for?

4. I contended that I had a perfect right to have any one come on the island to see me that I wanted to without his permission, and he contended that I didn't.

Q. When did the insubordination begin?



It was not insubordination.

No, no - passing from your case to the case of the officers; when did that begin, so far as you could learn or could see?

A. Well, it was one summer-I don't remember whether it was 1891 or 1892.


About a year before you left there?

A. I should say it was about a year and a half.

Q. Now, what was the cause of it?

A. Well, I laid it to trouble in the Commissioners' office, myself.

Q. But, so far as the island was concerned, who appeared to be to blame?

A. Well, it seemed to me that some of the officers down there were to blame.

Q. Who were they?

A. One lesson is enough, Mr. Riley. (Laughter.)

Q. Well, any of the officers who are down there now?

A. No, sir.

Q. You thought some of the officers were to blame?
A. Yes, sir.


And were you there during what is called the "Base-ball riot” of 1891 ?

A. I never heard it called the "base-ball riot," but I was there.

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Q. That was in October, 1891. Do you know whether the rioters were punished?

A. Yes, sir; they were, I think.

Q. Do you know anything about it?

A. Yes, sir; they were. There were a great many of them locked

· up in their cells. I remember that because we used to visit them.

Do you know what started that riot?

A. No, sir, I don't.


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Q. Now, what was the custom of the physician in regard to visiting the House of Reformation Hospital? How often did he go there? Well, every day when there was anybody there; but a good part


of the time there was not anybody there.

Q. Who used to go?


Sometimes Dr. Roche went, sometimes Dr. Schwab, sometimes Dr. Griffin, sometimes myself, and any of the doctors.


Q. Well, the rule was to visit the place once a day?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was the rule, wasn't it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. There is no doubt about that?


That was the custom. I don't know as there was any rule about

Q. Well, the custom was once a day — call it rule or custom or anything that you like—

The CHAIRMAN. - The committee will now adjourn until to-morrow evening at half-past seven.

Adjourned at 10.30 P.M., to meet on Friday, December 14, at 7.30 P.M.


FRIDAY, December 14, 1894.

The hearing was resumed at 7.30 o'clock P.M., Chairman HALLSTRAM presiding.

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Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Doctor, speaking of the burial of the dead, will you describe the trenches?

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A. As near as I can remember what I saw, in digging one afternoon a man told me they were going to bury. The hole that I saw was about, I should say, perhaps seven feet square, or seven by ten, and a couple of feet deep at that time.


Q. Now, those trenches are up on a part of the island called Money Hill, aren't they?

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And the trenches are about seven feet wide and about fifteen feet in length, aren't they?

A. I couldn't say. I say I thought they were about seven by ten, possibly. I couldn't give you any exact figures upon that, because I didn't measure them, and had no means of measuring.

Q. And it is close to the place where they buried the hogs at the time of the epidemic some years ago?

A. I don't know, sir.

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Q. Were you down there at the time of that epidemic?

A. I don't think so. I don't remember anything about it.

Q You spoke about services over the dead now and then. Generally it was when an officer died there that they had services, wasn't it? A. That wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about inmates at the time and prisoners. What I said had reference to prisoners. Q. Well, wasn't that only when the relatives of the deceased went down there and insisted on having services?

A. I don't know, sir.

Q. You don't know?

A. No.

No. I only just remember it in a general way. It was some

years ago.

Q. You remember the boy James Hanrahan, don't you?

A. No, sir - well, if you give me some particulars they might recall it to my mind; no, sir.

Q. The House of Reformation boy who was so badly punished?
A. No, sir; I don't.

Q. Do you remember examining and looking at the body of a boy who was punished by some of the officers in the House of Reformation?

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