Q. About how long?

A. Well, they were various times, sometime a week, sometimes two weeks.

Q. Sometimes a week without a session ?

A.

Q.

4.

Q.

Without having the records read.

And without an executive session ?

Without an executive session.

And that was not a rare occurrence by any means?

A. Well, the book will show that.

Q. Well, I am not familiar with the book, and you are.

d. No; it is a book two or three years old, and I have not seen it for a good while.

Q. Now, what you say, then, is, that whenever there was an executive session the Board requested your attendance, and you did attend?

A. I cannot say that quite, because I think I won't be sure, but my impression is that they did business without my presence; but they called me in to say what had been done. That is, they would have a discussion and would reach some conclusion when I was not present, but they would call me in to say that such a vote had been passed, or to make a record of such a vote.

Q. That is, now and again they held executives sessions when you were not present?

4. They did business when I was not present.

Q. Then not being present, of course you did not read the records of the previous meeting?

4. I could not have read anything if I was not present.

Q. So that they did hold meetings when no record of the previous meeting was read?

A. I don't know how you would reason that. They could do business without my presence, and tell me, and that made

it made it a meeting, of course.

Q. But who read the record of the previous meeting?
In such cases as that there was no record read, sir.
-Q. That is the point I was trying to make.

4.

Ald. LEE.

The WITNESS.

The Commissioners didn't require it.

- I never refused.

my record of

Mr. RILEY. I didn't say that you did. You know that I wouldn't say anything of that kind, and nobody that knows you would.

Ald. LEE. The Commissioners are the only parties who are concerned in this matter, and they could adjourn when they met without holding an executive session? Is that right?

The WITNESS. I had nothing to do with it.

Mr. RILEY.—What you mean, Mr. Alderman, is, that this witness was not a Commissioner.

Ald. LEE. — I mean to say that the Commissioners were the parties who governed this matter, and that they could adjourn without holding an executive session.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Now, they would bring to you the result of the meeting?

A. They would send for me.

Q. And when would you write out the record for that meeting — the meeting when you were not present?

4. Immediately upon being notified of it.

Q. That is, whatever they told you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who would generally bring you that information?

A. Generally in the presence of all, by the chairman. Sometimes,

the vote would be brought to me by either of the Commissioners. 2. You would put it on the small book right off?

A. Immediately.

Q. When would you transfer it to the large book?

A.

As soon as it was approved.

2.

But we have no means of getting at the time?

A. The book shows it.

Q. How long before it would be transferred to the larger book? 4. Immediately after the meeting held where the records were read.

Q. Have there been instances of where a week elapsed?

4, Not after it was approved. It was put in the small book, and was put from it into the large book immediately after the approval of it. If it was

Q. But have there been instances where the record on the smaller book was not transferred on to the larger book for weeks?

A. Yes. They were never transferred until they were approved. Q. That is not what I am getting at. Sometimes a record would remain on the smaller book for weeks before it went on to the larger? As long as it was not approved.

Yes; and it might be weeks?

4.

Q.

Q.

It might be months?

A. It might be.

A. I don't think it was ever more than a month I don't know that.

Q. Probably not.

4.

Q.

I don't know that.

Now, do the records show that at each executive session all the members were present?

A. The record shows this- that if any Commissioner at any time during the business hours of the day appeared at the room, he was to be marked as being present that day, on an agreement with the Commissioners that every man should be marked present if he appeared and took any part in the business that day. He might be at one of the institutions and not at the Board rooms until late in the afternoon, or something like that, and the rule was to mark them present; but if I understand your question I think I do, and I want to answer it clearly

Q. Well, I didn't know that it called for such a long preface as that.

A. Well, talkativeness is catching, like everything else.

Q. Well, now, I wish you would answer this question: Do the records show that at each executive session all the Commissioners were present ?

A. If they were present, it does.

Q. And if they were not?

4. It doesn't.

Q. It doesn't. Now, I understand from your explanation —
A. I didn't explain.

Q. (Continuing.) - given just now, that if a Commissioner was absent during the executive session which was held at eleven o'clock under Rule 2, as you construed it, that Commissioner if he should put in an appearance at any time during the day, as, for instance, at 6 P.M., your record would show that he was present at the executive session. Am I right?

4. The record would show that they were present whenever they appeared any time during business hours, but not quite so late as six. Ald. LEE. That would be a violation of the ordinances, wouldn't it? Five o'clock is the closing hour.

The WITNESS. (Continuing.) But under the direction of the Commissioners, any member of the Commission who was present at any hour of the day during business hours was marked present at that business meeting; but at any meeting at which the records were ever read,

none of the Commissioners were ever marked present unless they were present actually.

Q. You see that this multiplies words and takes time. We are reaching the end now. I don't wish to interrupt you, but at the same time I do wish to make my question so simple that we can proceed rapidly. Let us understand each other. The executive sessions were at 11 o'clock in the forenoon?

d. That was the order.

Q. And if that order was lived up to, that is the hour that the sessions were held?

1. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, that session lasted about how long?

4. Various times, long enough to have the records read and to have any business introduced.

Q. But averaging the short meetings with the longer ones, about what length of time would be occupied by the meetings, about an hour? 4. Oh, no, rarely as long as that.

Q. Well, half an hour?

A.

There were some half-hour meetings.

Q. Now, we will assume that a meeting begins at 11 and ends at 11.30, where some of the Commissioners were absent. If any of these Commissioners put in an appearance before the closing hour, 5 P.M., then your record would show that all the members were present?

A. If they had an executive session at which they were present, they were marked present, and if they were absent, and I was there, they were marked absent.

Q. What did you mean by saying that if the Commissioners wasn't there during an executive session, and came in at any time during the day, he was marked present?

A.

I didn't say that - or didn't mean to.

Q. What did you mean by that?

A. I didn't mean to say that, or didn't say it, I think.

Q. What do you mean by an absent Commissioner coming in and being marked present?

A. At any time during the day.
Q. What would you do then?
A. I would mark him present.
Q. At the executive session ?
A. No, sir.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) You marked him as being present at the oflice? At the office to attend to business.

A.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) What is the use of adding anything to his words? Now, answer this question: If any Commissioner came in at any time during business hours, what would you put down on the book? Q. All the members present.

Q. Yes; although one of the members would not get to the office until 5 o'clock? Is that true?

4. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you get authority to do that?

A. The Commission, of course.

Q. When?

A. It has been the custom ever since the Commission was organized. When did the custom begin?

Q.

4. In the beginning of the Commission - from their first appoint

ment.

Q. Do your records show the adoption of any such rule?

A. No, sir; I think not.

Q. Then I ask you when it began and who began it?

A.

When the first Commission was formed, the rule was adopted that if any member of the Commission was present at any time during business hours, he should be marked as present.

Q. Who told you to do it?

A. The first three Commissioners, Dr. Jenks, Mr. Prescott, and Mr. Laforme. All three wished to be marked present.

Q. Now, for instance, if only one of the Commissioners was present at the 11 o'clock executive session, and the other two Commissioners didn't get in until 5 o'clock or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, yet the records would show that all were present?

A.

When an exccutive session was held?

Q. Am I right? Am I right in my assumption in that question?
You are and you are not. If an executive session -

A.

Q. Well, what part of it will you give to me and what part of it will you put against me?

A. By an executive session" is meant a session at which the records were read. Whatever is stated in that book, and whoever is marked as present or absent at that executive session, was present or absent That record is correct, and no man was marked present when he was absent, when the records were read.

Q. But if a man came in late, you put him down as present?

A.

Not when the records were read.

Q. If a Commissioner came in at any time during an executive session, would not he be marked present ?

(No response.)

Q. Yes, he would, wouldn't he?

A. I didn't say so. I think you said so. something, but I don't know what about.

Q. Oh, I said that there is no doubt about it.

A. Well, I don't think I said that.

You said "Yes" about

Mr. PROCTOR. You said "Yes," fast enough.

Mr. RILEY. — You are the finest human parrot I ever met.

Mr. PROCTOR. Well, I am not so much like a woolly dog as you are, anyhow. (Laughter.)

Mr. RILEY. No, you are more like a yellow one. (Laughter.)
The CHAIRMAN. Will Mr. Riley please proceed.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Now, general, if they came in at any time before the closing hour, you would mark them in your record as being present?

4. Not the day of an executive session, when I read the records. Q. I am not asking you that.

A. Always, except that, sir.

Q. That is just what I desire to get at. Now, will you kindly turn to October 20, 1891.

Ald. LEE. - Well, I would like to ask just one question or two about that second rule.

Mr. RILEY.

Well, you will confuse me pretty well before I get through, if you interrupt.

Ald. LEE. Well, I ought to get a gold medal from some Humane Society if I confuse you.

Mr. RILEY. Take care you don't get a leather one.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) I would like to have you read that rule, so that the chairman of the committee and the members may get hold of it that second rule.

4. (Reading)

All business concerning the work of the Commission shall be presented to the Commission at a daily executive session, to be held at 11 o'clock A.M.

Ald. LEE. That don't apply to executive sessions at all. It says that all business shall be presented to the Commissioners

Mr. RILEY.

At executive sessions.

Ald. LEE. — It don't say "executive."

The WITNESS. Yes, "at a daily executive session." (Laughter.) Ald. LEE. Well, now, that is all fright. We will suppose that it does. Isn't it possible that the Commissioners should meet and then immediately adjourn without doing any business?

Mr. RILEY.

Well, has the time for arguing come?

Ald. LEE. Well, I thought that you had argued it pretty well, and I thought it was about time for the committee to have something to say. I would like to ask one more question.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) Were all the executive sessions held at 11 o'clock?

At other hours of the day?

Yes, sir.

Later?

Later.

Any of them up to 4 o'clock, that you remember?

I think not as late as that.

Up to three?

A. Possibly.

Q.

(By Mr. RILEY.) Have those rules ever been repealed?

A. I think not.

Q.

They are still in force?

4. The rule has never been repealed, to my recollection.

Q. So that your reply to the Alderman is that they have been broken? Am I right?

That is a matter for the committee to decide. Ald. LEE.

That is what records are made for, you know- to break. Sometimes records are made to break, and they are broken. Mr. RILEY Well, if they are good ones they should not be.

Q. (By Mr. RILEY.) Now, general, will you turn to Oct. 20, 1891 ? A. (Reading) Tuesday, Oct. 20, 1891."

Q. Do you find anything there in the way of a report pertaining to an officer in one of the institutions named James White?

The following report of the committee on case of Officer James White was accepted and adopted :

"14 BEACON STREET, October 20, 1891. "The committee in conjunction with the superintendent of the institutions at Deer Island have investigated the charges upon which Officer James White was discharged, and found the evidence to be unreliable, and that nothing was done by said officer to warrant his discharge. He is an officer without flaw in his previous record at the institution, and the committee therefore recommends that he be this day reinstated without loss of pay, and that this report be forwarded to the Civil Service Commission."

Q. Was that report adopted?

A. It was. I read that. (Reading :) "The following report of the committee on case of Officer James White was accepted and adopted. Q. Now, will you turn to March 2, 1891 — I think it is page 250? A. You seem to be familiar with these records, after all, don't you?

Mr. RILEY. — Well, by proxy.

The WITNESS. - March what was that, sir?

Mr. RILEY. — March 2.