A. No, sir; I never did.

Q. When the Water Board was informed of a break in that pipe. I understand you to say that the information came from the Commissioners of Public Institutions, either by communication or by telephone, am I correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And have you any means of knowing how soon after the break occurred that information came to the Water Board?

it the next day after the break?

A. I don't remember particularly about that.

Q. Does your record show?

A. I doubt if it does.

Was

Q. Does the record show the time at which you received these various notifications?

A. I doubt very much if it is on the record book.

Q. It would simply show the day?

A. For instance, they might have telephoned in the morning, and whoever answered the telophone would naturally telephone right to the superintendent's office that there was a break there. Q. To the superintendent of

A. The superintendent of the Eastern Division, having charge of that line.

Q. That is Mr. Brackett, is it not?

A. No, Superintendent Welch.

Q. Mr. Brackett is in the Engineer's office?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. (By Ald. LOMASNEY.)

Mr. Swan, before connecting these

different islands I presume the Water Board consulted with the City Engineer?

A. Before laying the pipes.

Q. Well, before they connected the different islands Thompson's and all these different places with this pipe, they consulted with the City Engineer?

A. Certainly.

Q. And it was on his recommendation and suggestion that they were allowed to connect?

W. Yes, sir.

Q. And who makes the plans?

A. The Engineer makes the plans.

ELIZABETH G. Evans.

Recalled.

Q. (By Mr. BRANDEIS.) Mrs. Evans, the committee expressed a desire at one of the recent hearings to have us submit to the committee any practical suggestions for carrying out the recommendations which have been made in regard to the improvement of the management at Long Island. The subject which was considered most fully was that of classification, and I would like you to state to the committee what you can with a view to carrying out practically the recommendation which has been made on the subject.

A. Well, as I understand it, the new building at Long Island, the one erected for women, will very soon be in use, and that will

collect on Long Islaud the women now on Rainsford and leave still on Long Island the women now there and all the men now there. I am told that it is the plan to vacate the almshouse at Charlestown and put all the inmates of the Charlestown Almshouse on Long Island. If they do that I should think the crowd at Long Island would be so great that there would be very little opportunity for classification. Last winter there were 692 inmates at Long Island, the largest number, 458 the largest number at Rainsford Island, and 160 the largest number at Charlestown. The new building, as I understand it, provides accommodations for 400. How many can be accommodated in the new wing of the hospital I don't know, but we will call it 100, making 500 more, whereas there were more than 600 last winter at Rainsford Island and Charlestown. So, if those two institutions are vacated and all the pauper inmates collected on Long Island, the institution would be so crowded that I don't see how there would be very much opportunity to classify at all, excepting as they could put the women in one building, and the men in the other. I should think, aside from the classification of sex, there would be very little opportunity at all. But if the use of the Charlestown Almshonse should be continued I should think that might leave room enough in the building at Long Island to allow for classification in the buildings there. I understand it is the intention to collect all the men inmates in what is known as the Institution Building, the old brick building. Well, there are six, if not seven - I am not sure whether six or seven large dormitories there, very large ones. That would give six rooms, and in these six rooms the inmates might be classified as is seen fit. One room might be called the Work-house Department, assigned to the able-bodied men, or something of that soit, such men as it might be deemed best to keep together being placed in the different wards. For instance, another one of the dormitories might be occupied by those who are aged and infirm, and so ou. There could be six divisions if there are six wards there.

Q. Well, some of those are now used as an infirmary.

4. Well, what they call the infirmary wards for the men are no different from the rest of the institution, so far as I have discovered. There is no difference at all, except that the men in the infirmary ward are allowed, I am told, to lie down in the day-time if they want to, and the others are not allowed to do so without permission. You might have some comfortable chairs for those men. You could have different divisions, different kinds of men associating together. You might call that the infirmary ward, for instance I believe it is Ward A—but aside from the way in which the infirm and sick might necessarily have to be treated differently from the others, it could be understood that the discipline was to be the same throughout the institution. I should think the fundamental thing in classifying would be to have the institution divided into the hospital department for the sick, the infirmary department, the almshouse department proper, the infirmary department being for those who need care and maintenance, the hospital department for those who were sick, the

work-house department, where the discipline should be very strict and the fare very simple, for the able-bodied. The able-bodied are, necessarily, as a rule, loafers.

Q. Well, how practically would you go about making that classification which you speak of and apply it in the buildings which are, and are likely to be, at the disposal of the Commission?

A. I don't see why in the buildings just as they are, even without alterations, the rudiments of a classification and an admirable and satisfactory one, might not be introduced.

Q. That is, if there were six or seven rooms, two of them might be used as an infirmary; and you would have in that infirmary at least two classes?

A. Yes.

Q. And the remaining four or five rooms could be used for a work-house, with the further possibility of at least four or five classes there?

A. Yes. And then by having them use the dining-room separate, instead of all going to the dining-room together, you could make difference in the food. Have the able-bodied given simple fare. Give them no luxuries. My idea would be to give luxuries simply, if at all, to those disabled, making them decently comfortable, but not to tempt by luxuries those who can support themselves and will not, to come there.

Q Would there be any difficulty in dividing any of the large wards there by means of paritions?

A. In some of the new buildings at Tewksbury which I happened to visit last week, rather incidentally, I noticed in some of the new wards they have a partition up higher than a man's head, running down the middle of the ward, and once or twice crossing it, so that it breaks it up. It is open as far as ventilation and allowing fresh air from above is concerned, of course, but in one sense it cuts the place up into small rooms below. It seems to me to break up the sense of monotony and dreariness that you get in a great ward from fifty to eighty beds.

Q. And it gives you an opportunity to classify them also?

A. Yes. For instance, if there was a large ward holding 100 beds, you could have it divided so that there would be fifty on one side and fifty on the other. Then if further subdivision was re

quired it could be done.

Q. Do you consider it desirable that inmates should be divided up into smaller classes than would be indicated by a ward of the size that they are at Long Island?

A. Yes, sir; very much so. At the Charlestown Almshouse they have a number of small rooms. Some rooms where there is one inmate, others where there are two, three, and four, and I should think with that arrangement there would be much less quarrelling and less chance of contamination, because they are then broken into groups. If the inmates from the Charlestown Almshouse are all placed on Long Island it would not really allow sufficient room in the institution at Long Island for proper classification. In regard to the arrangements at Loug Island, I don't see why a partition might not be run across one of the large wards,

making a little day-roon for the aged and those who want to be made comfortable. There might be a comfortable reading-room, with a desk there, with magazines and papers, perhaps pictures on the walls, and there might be a room upstairs where the people who are not able-bodied and who could not be out-doors might have some place to sit besides staying by their bed all day with nothing to do.

Q. Then you think that without any appreciable additional expense the Institution Building at Long Island could be adapted to carrying out this plan of classification which has been generally testified to as being desirable?

A. I don't see why not. I can't see any objection to it.

Q. Have you anything else to say on the subject of classification?

A. No, I don't think I have.

Q. Then the next subject discussed was the matter of compulsory labor. It was suggested that it would be desirable to have legislation in order that work might be enforced — even admitting that the law is sufficient because, in the first place, it has not in the past been enforced, and in the second place, that a considerable. expense would be necessary for workshops in order to put the plan into operation. Have you considered that subject?

A. Well, I shouldn't think there would be any need of workshops. They have no work-shops at Tewksbury. There wouldn't be so very many able-bodied paupers there if they were made to work. They would keep away. Mayor Matthews suggested to the Board of Visitors last winter that they should use their efforts to induce the Commissioners to erect a stone-shed at the wharf for cutting stone. He said that could be done at small expense and would be profitable to the city, which could use all the stone that was cut. He did not suggest as to whether there was any necessity for legislation to erect the shed. There might be; I don't know in regard to that. But I should think such a shed could be erected at a small outlay, that the stone could be furnished by the city and the city would get the benefit of the work upon it, thus turning it to profitable use, and that it would be a very good thing all around. Curbstones, for instance, should be cut in the stoneshed, and it would certainly serve to keep away so many ablebodied paupers as now stay there.

Q. (By Ald. LEE.) Was that a written communication of His Honor the Mayor to the Board?

A. It was addressed personally to Mr. Farmer. He wrote to him and said, “I wish the Board of Visitors would get the Commission to do so and so." Then, also, a great deal of labor could be utilized in keeping the institution spick and span. In keeping it clean you could use a great amount of labor. Dr. Cogswell says the institution is washed once a week. It didn't use to be before the Board of Visitors went there, but I understand that it is now. They used to mop the floors simply. If you want to keep people employed I don't see why you can't scrub the place every day. Heaps of people can be employed in that way. I was at Tewksbury last week and noticed how clean the dining-room was.

Everything seemed so neat about it that I could have sat down there myself with comfort, the food was served so nicely and the dining-room was so clean. You can employ a great deal of labor in keeping such institutions clean. Dr. Cogswell said that a place might be clean in the morning and might get dirty again in the afternoon, but with five or six hundred idle men there is no reason why you cannot keep the place clean. I have been down in the dining-room at Long Island aud have seen the condition of affairs there in regard to cleanliness before the change was made. It has been cleaner since, but at that time it was simply dirty. There were half a dozen able-bodied men, slouchy paupers, sitting around doing nothing. I said to them, "You don't seem to be working very hard. What are you doing? . We keep the room clean." I said, "Well, it doesn't seem to be very clean.' Why, we mop it up three times a week." I said, Why don't you do it three times a day?" And the men laughed. “And," I said, "why don't you scrub it, and not mop it?" After the Board of Visitors' report was handed in I noticed the effect. I was down there just the day before the Board of Aldermen visited the institution and it was scrubbed up very nice and clean, and I asked what had happened, and they said the Board of Aldermen were coming down there. Then after Deputy Stinson came in it was kept much cleaner, being scrubbed instead of mopped, but only once a week. Men come in there dirty, right from out-of-doors, with dirty feet, and drop their food on the floors, and the result is that the place is very dirty. The best way to take care of institution floors is to use wax and turpentine, which gives a hard polish to the floor, and then when you get dirt on it, it will rub right off. It makes a hard surface and the dirt doesn't sink into it. It affords a great deal of labor in the schools of which I am trustee to prepare the floors in that way. The boys at Westboro' go over the floor in that way, and it is kept perfectly clean and everything smells sweet and nice. You can employ any amount of labor in polishing floors. Can use a great deal of inmate labor in that way. There is really no need of a stone-shed, but you might have one to scare away the loafers. I do not believe in work-shops.

Q Is there any other work you could suggest? Mr. Galvin suggested farm work.

A. Of course the trouble with farmwork is that it is done in the spring and summer, when the able-bodied men are not there. At Tewksbury, I suppose, they couldn't carry on their large farm if it were not for the insane, and I should think that the farmwork done in the spring and summer at the almshouse would necessarily have to be done by insane patients or prisoners. It is very good to have the farm there and to employ the Deer Island men, but I don't think you could work it with paupers, who have the right to leave when the warm weather comes.

Q. Is the effort at Tewksbury, simply to have the people employed at productive labor, or to have them work?

A. To have them work.

Q. Regardless of whether the work is productive or not?'