January 10, and ask you if you recall seeing that communication before?

Mr. VOGT (examining document). Yes; I recall seeing this letter, but I had informed Mr. Clark that I would be there to investigate it. He says here that I should notify him of the date of hearing, and most of the union people at that time, in '37, whenever we went out to investigate, always called it a hearing but that was not the right nomenclature. I wanted to correct that.

Mr. TOLAND. Yes. I offer in evidence this letter from Mr. Clark. (Letter from Lewis J. Clark to National Labor Relations Board, dated January 10 (no year) re Collins Radio Company case XIII-C471, was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 1415," and is printed in the appendix of this volume.)

Mr. TOLAND. I offer in evidence a copy of a letter of reply of the Chairman of the Board to Senator Herring, dated January 21, 1938, found in the files of this case.

(Copy of letter of reply of J. Warren Madden to Hon. Clyde L. Herring, dated January 21, 1938, was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 1416," and is printed in the appendix of this volume.) Mr. TOLAND. I show you a letter from Wayne Elliott, addressed to yourself, dated January 27, 1938, acknowledging receipt of a letter of January 24, 1938. I ask you if you did not receive the first letter and enclosures.

Mr. VOGT. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. I offer both documents in evidence.

(Copy of letter to Mr. Wayne Elliott from Leonard C. Bajork, by Herbert J. Vogt, dated February 14, 1938, was received in evidence and marked "Exhibit No. 1417," and is printed in the appendix of this volume.)

(Letter to Herbert J. Vogt from Wayne W. Elliott, dated January 27, 1938, was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 1418," and is printed in the appendix of this volume.)

Mr. TOLAND. I show you a paper written in hand, headed "Collins Radio, XVIII-C-191," bearing your name at the bottom, and ask you if that is in your handwriting.

Mr. VOGT (examining document). It is.
Mr. TOLAND. And it has your name on it?
Mr. VOGT. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. I offer it in evidence.

(Sheet of yellow paper headed "Collins Radio XVIII-C-191" dated May 29, 1938, signed "Vogt," was received in evidence, marked “Exhibit No. 1419," and is printed in the appendix of this volume.)

Mr. TOLAND. Do you want to make any statement on this exhibit? Mr. VOGT. I don't think I do.

Mr. TOLAND. It speaks for itself, doesn't it?

Mr. VOGT. I think so.

Mr. TOLAND. I offer in evidence a copy or a report in the handwriting of Mr. Wiener, concerning the Collins Radio case, and ask you if you recall seeing that before?

Mr. VOGT. No; I don't recall seeing that.

Mr. TOLAND. Well, I will offer that in evidence as found in the files.

(Report on Collins Radio, "M. H. Hobbs, atty., Robert Gates. Treas.," dated June 9 (no year) was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 1420," and is printed in the appendix of this volume.) Mr. MURDOCK. Which files was it found in. Mr. Toland?

Mr. TOLAND. The Board files, the informal files of the regional office of the National Labor Relations Board.

Did you investigate the Gamble Robinson Co. and Pacific Fruit & Produce Co.?

Mr. MURDOCK. Why, Mr. Toland, should it be introduced in connection with this gentleman's testimony?

Mr. TOLAND. It is a report on the case in connection with a matter that he investigated and handled, and it is a report of the settlement. Mr. VOGT. Might I make an explanation there? When that charge first came, I handled it. Then this criticism was sent in to the Senator or the Representative, I think it was, then, after I wrote a report in response to that, Mr. Oscar Smith was in on that case. and I was not in on the case after that, so I don't just know what took place after I left the case. It was handled by three people, as I recall it, Mr. Smith, Mr. Wiener, and Mr. Houck, I believe. Mr. MURDOCK. Which Mr. Smith?

Mr. VOGT. Oscar Smith.

Mr. TOLAND. Now, Mr. Vogt, did you investigate the Gamble Robinson and Pacific Fruit case?

Mr. VOGT. I had one of them; there have been several.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you know Mr. Scott, connected with the com pany? Did you ever have a conference with him?

Mr. VOGT. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you ever make the following statement to Mr. Scott in a conference: "Well, if you can't pay more than starvation wages, why in hell don't you close down the plant"?

Mr. VOGT. No; I did not make that statement, and there have been several people who are willing to testify to that fact that Mr. Scott said that he wouldn't.

Mr. TOLAND. Now, I asked you; did you?

Mr. VOGT. Well, I can't-I may have-may I comment on it?
Mr. TOLAND. Either you did or you didn't.'

The CHAIRMAN. Let him finish his statement.

Mr. VOGT. I think there is a report on this, and to the best of my recollection, Mr. Scott said he could not pay the wages, and he would have to go out of business, and did the Government advocate that, and I told Mr. Scott no, the Government did not advocate anybody going out of business, because that was their legal right, and nobody would stop them from going in business or out of business as long as it was a legal business. I know we had some discussion of that and I think you will find that in the report.

Mr. TOLAND. Now, do you know Mr. McNally, who was at the conference?

Mr. VOGT. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. Did he take exception to any statement that you made and then did you make this statement, that you told Mr. McNally it didn't make a damned bit of difference to him if he did take exception to any remark Mr. Vogt might see fit to make, and did you then walk over to Mr. McNally in a hostile manner and suggest that Mr. McNally punch you in the nose?

Mr. VOGT. I don't recall it went that far.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you also at that conference remove your coat and vest and walk about the room and continue to make the statement that the company was paying starvation wages?

Mr. VOGT. I don't recall that. In fact, I don't wear a vest.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you make the following statement: "Hell, you guys aren't willing to trade chestnuts," and further, "Well, it looks as if we will go to court about that. It looks as though we will have to have a hearing on this." Did you make those statements?

Mr. VOGT. I don't recall.

Mr. TOLAND. Was there a stenographer present?

Mr. VOGT. There was a girl present, but the detailed notes were not taken.

Mr. TOLAND. Did you instruct the stenographer at certain times not to take down certain statements that you had made?

Mr. VOGT. I don't recall.

Mr. TOLAND. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer in evidence at this point the questionnaire of the Gamble Robinson Co. and Pacific Fruit Co., and the answer filed, being a part of the committee's

records.

(Questionnaire and answer of Gamble Robinson Co. and Pacific Fruit & Produce Co., dated September 16, 1939, was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit 1421," and is printed in the appendix of this volume.)

Mr. TOLAND. I would like to read the chronology of the case:

July 14, 1938: Charges filed by Harry E. Jones President, Local Industrial Union No. 503-C. I. O.

September 7, 1938: Request for Authorization of Complaint

September 22, 1938: Complaint Authorization.

October 6, 1938: Amended Charge Filed.

October 28, 1938: Complaint Issued.

November 10, 1938: Notice of Adjournment of Hearing and Notice of Hearing. November 14, 1938: Notice of Adjournment of Hearing.

January 19, 1939: Charges withdrawn.

February 10, 1939: Order dismissing complaint.

Mr. MURDOCK. What case was that?

Mr. TOLAND. That is the Gamble Robinson, Minneapolis, Minn. Mr. MURDOCK. Wasn't that case and the Collins case informally settled, satisfactory to both sides?

Mr. TOLAND. It

Mr. VOGT (interposing). That is right.

Mr. MURDOCK. In each instance?

Mr. VOGT. That is right.

Mr. TOLAND. The record in this case is that the complaint was dismissed and charges were withdrawn.

Now, I show you a paper in writing and ask you if this is in your own handwriting.

Mr. VOGT (examining document). No, this is not my handwriting. Mr. TOLAND. Do you know whose it is?

Mr. VOGT. It has the initials J. M. S.

Mr. TOLAND. And who is that?

Mr. VOGT. It might be Jim Shields.

Mr. TOLAND. He is an employee of the Board?

Mr. VOGT. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. I offer it in evidence, found in the files.

Mr. MURDOCK. What is his name?

Mr. VOGT. Shields, James M. Shields.
The CHAIRMAN. And he is

Mr. TOLAND (interposing). He is a field examiner.
Mr. VOGT. Yes.

(Handwritten memorandum on Gamble Robinson & Company case, headed, "J. G. Scott, vice president plant at Estherville," was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 1422," and is printed in the appendix of this volume.)

Mr. TOLAND. I offer in evidence a copy of a letter from James Shields to Leonard C. Bajork, dated March 16, 1938, found in the informal files of this case.

(Copy of letter from James M. Shields to Leonard C. Bajork, subject, "Gamble Robinson Co., XIII-C-562," dated March 16, 1938, was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 1423" and is printed in the appendix of this volume.)

Mr. TOLAND. I offer in evidence a letter from Mr. Harry E. Jones, president, to Mr. Robert J. Wiener, dated November 8, 1938.

(Letter from Estherville, Iowa, dated November 8, 1938, from Harry E. Jones to Robert J. Wiener, was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit 1424," and is printed in the appendix of this volume.)

Mr. TOLAND. I ask you, Mr. Vogt, if you have seen that letter? Mr. VOGT (examining document). No, I did not see that, but I was told about it in a memorandum, because I was out of the office.

Mr. TOLAND. It says on it in pencil, "Show to Lee and Herb." That means you, does it?

Mr. VOGT. Yes.

Mr. TOLAND. Now I offer in evidence a letter from Mr. Harry E. Jones, organizer of the C. I. O., to yourself, dated January 28, 1939, and ask if you received that.

Mr. VOGT. Yes. It is addressed to me and I received it.

Mr. TOLAND. I offer it in evidence. Do you have any statement you want to make about it?

Mr. VOGT. All I can say is that it was taken out of my personal file, because it has my personal box number on it. It was not addressed to the Board.

Mr. TOLAND. But it is with reference to a case pending before the Board, is it not?

Mr. VOGT. I—

Mr. TOLAND (interposing). I asked you the other day, and I ask you again, are you making any personal point of the fact that this committee did not have any right to examine your files?

Mr. VOGT. I did not say the committee did not have a right to examine my files. I thought I made myself clear on that. But I do think my personal communications which have nothing to do with the Board procedure, is private, and should be considered as such. I am not making any issue on it. Please don't misunderstand me.

Mr. TOLAND. But you keep repeating it. This letter, Mr. Chairman, that the witness says was taken cut of his personal files, reads as follows:

This is to inform you that the Gamble-Robinson case has been settled to our satisfaction and you may turn that release over to Mr. Wiener, and thanks. By the way, Herb, I want to ask you for a little information, you see that

since you was here on Jan. 19th, I have organized the Estherville Packing Company, and I will be petitioning the Board for an election, either the last of this week or the first of next.

Now here is what I want to know; in the petition form, it stated: "The undersigned hereby alleges that a question has arisen concerning the representation of the employees in the above bargaining unit, in that:" Is it possible for me to state, "That on previous occasions the Corporation has refused to bargain collectively with the petitioner, and the petitioner is thoroughly convinced, that the Corporation will refuse certification without an election," and file with the Board, before I notify the Company?

If I can do that, I will be able to get the jump on the Chamber of Commerce. Please let me know by return mail as I have called a meeting for Wednesday, Feb. 1st, and H. R. Ballard and Don Harris are to be here.

The CHAIRMAN. To whom is that addressed?

Mr. TOLAND. To the witness, from the organizer of the C. I. O. union.

(Letter from Harry E. Jones to Herbert J. Vogt, dated January 28, 1939, from Estherville, Iowa, was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 1425," and appears above.)

Mr. TOLAND. Then I have a copy of a letter from Mr. Wiener to Mr. Jones, dated November 11, 1938, found in the case file, and that letter was not in the witness's personal file.

(Copy of letter to Harry E. Jones, President, Local Industrial Union No. 503, dated November 11, 1938, was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 1426," and is printed in the appendix of this volume.)

Mr. TOLAND. Here is the answer found in the informal files of this case, dated January 31, 1939, which is in answer to the letter that The says was in his personal files.

(Letter marked "Confidential," to Harry E. Jones, from Herbert J. Vogt, dated January 31, 1939, was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 1427," and is printed in the appendix of this volume.) Mr. TOLAND. Now, Mr. Vogt, did you investigate the independent union known as the Midwest Employees' Association at Keokuk, Iowa?

Mr. VOGT. Yes, I investigated part of that.

Mr. TOLAND. And did you during 1938 call the members of the independent union to your room at the hotel and put them under oath?

Mr. VOGT. I might have done that.

Mr. TOLAND. And then did you later have a conference with Mr. Wood who is connected with that union?

Mr. VOGT. Yes, I recall Mr. Wood there.

Mr. TOLAND. And then did you make the statement to Mr. Tood that there were two major organizations, the A. F. L. and the C. I. O. and that there would be no more independent unions?

Mr. VOGT. No, I don't recall making that statement.

Mr. TOLAND. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer in evidence the questionnaire received from the official of the independent union, known as Midwest Employees' Association.

(Questionnaire dated September 16, 1939, from Midwest Employees' Association, was received in evidence, marked "Exhibit No. 1428," and is printed in the appendix of this volume.)

Mr. TOLAND. Now, you were also connected with the National Carbide Corporation case, were you not?