Gen. CROZIER. For hauling the ammunition and the guns themselves. The ammunition will be mostly supplied by automobile trucks.

Mr. SISSON. General, how many extra men would it take to man the 6-inch and the 9.5-inch guns as compared to the former gunsthe 3 and 4 inch?

Gen. CROZIER. Comparing the 6-inch howitzer with the 3.8-inch howitzer, of which it takes the place, as a rough guess, I should say not over twice the number of men, perhaps not that, because it depends a little bit on whether the particular battery were horsed or were provided with motor transportation. Of course, it would take a good many men, if horsed, to take care of the horses, but with motor trucks a much smaller number of men would be necessary. One or two men would look after as many motor trucks as would require three or four times that number if horsed.

Mr. SISSON. And the ammunition will require more men because of the increased weight?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; four times the weight of the other one. The manning of the battery would not call for men, I think, four times the number; I think an increase of 25 per cent would do.

Mr. SISSON. The cost of the ammunition for the larger gun would be very materially increased?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SISSON. About how much?

Gen. CROZIER. I suspect somewhat nearly in proportion to the weight of the projectile, perhaps not as high. I think, perhaps. three times. The cost of a complete round for the 3.8-inch howitzer is $21 and for the 6-inch howitzer is $46.

Mr. CANNON. I do not know whether it is in order at this time, but I would like to know this: It seems that you have estimates here for mines

Gen. CROZIER (interposing). I put in those estimates, but they come under the Chief of Coast Artillery.

Mr. CANNON. Then there are three estimates here on pages 105 and 106. Now, I would like to know just in the shape of a lump sum, taking into consideration what you have and then your estimates for additional appropriations how much you need for the first million men, how much you need for the next half million men, and how much you need for the next half million men, making two million men. I want to know how much you need for the whole shooting match, and when you ought to have it-whether now or whether a part of it could be deferred?

Gen. CROZIER. Take the first one that you spoke of the first item on page 105. Now, I have not divided that for 500,000 men, but for the second million men, out of that $899,000,000, I would get $530,000.000. That would be for the second million men.

Mr. CANNON. Five hundred and thirty million dollars of that is for the second million men?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. Do you need it now?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; I need the authorization for it now. because I have got to make contracts now.

The CHAIRMAN. General, there is one thing you ought to state before you pass on. You are also given authority to enter into con

tracts for $2,200,000 additional to the $40,000,000 carried in the fortification act.

Gen. CROZIER. That is right, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that money in here?

Gen. CROZIER. It is not, but it ought to be in here. In the act of February 14, $2,200,000 was authorized for contracts.

The CHAIRMAN. So that to meet all the obligations that you now contemplate it will require $2,200,000 in addition to this estimate? Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. To be provided as will be determined later?
Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. General, you received from the Army bill, the fortification bill, and the deficiency bill of June $171,900,000 for this purpose?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Now, you estimate, as I understand it, $329,000,000 of the present estimate of $899,000,000 as necessary to complete the program for the first million men that the $172,000,000 practically was intended for?

Gen. CROZIER. That is right.

Mr. SHERLEY. As I understand you, that $329,000,000 is due to the necessity for making provision for artillery for the reserve depots, for the remount for the recruit battalion, and for an increase in the character of field artillery or the substitution of heavier for lighter types?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; and a slight increase in number in some cases, but not very great. Now, right there, to make your question so that it will not mislead, you will notice that the $171,900,000 which you have spoken of and the $329,000,000, approximately, which I am asking for to complete the armament of the first million men, taken together, do not make $530,000,000, which I say is sufficient for the second million men.

Mr. SHERLEY. That is what I am coming to. That would leave you $530,000,000 for your second army, but from that must be subtracted $40,000,000 to take care of old contract obligations.

Gen. CROZIER. The $329,000,000, approximately, which we are now asking for and the $171,900,000 which I got in those other bills you have mentioned, together did not make all the money which I would have had for providing Artillery for the first 1,000,000 men, because for that purpose for a series of years back I have been getting some

money.

Mr. SHERLEY. I understand. So that there would have to be added to the cost of the first 1,000,000 men the value, or, if you wanted to keep your unit cost constant, the present cost of reproducing that artillery which you have on hand.

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. What would that amount to in round figures?
Gen. CROZIER. You could get it by taking this difference.

Mr. SHERLEY. Perhaps I can get it in another way: This $530,000.000, with the $40,000,000 for contract authorizations taken from it. will leave $490,000,000, representing the cost of the second 1,000,000 men.

In addition to that, we have a couple of steel-making plants whose management we are trying to get to accept an order involving the increase of their plants for the purpose of making gun forgings. We have not yet got to the point of having them do it because of the fact that although we have money enough to pay for the plant extensions, we have not money enough to give them large plant occupation thereafter in the way of making forgings in the plant. For the machining of the forgings into finished guns we are also at about the same point with reference to two companies with large machine shops whom we want to increase their machine-shop capacity. That ends a list of the establishments whom we have already set aside money for for enlargement of plants, including both those who have consented to it and are doing it and those who have not yet consented to do it.

In addition, we have two more plants which we would like to set to enlarging themselves for the manufacture of forgings, but for which we have not any money to pay for the enlargement nor to pay for the forgings manufactured there; and there are two more which we would like to set at the task of enlarging their capacity for machining guns and manufacturing them out of forgings furnished them, but for which we have no money to pay for either the enlargement of plant or for the machining of guns therein afterwards. Thus far I have spoken of the plant necessary to manufacture the artillery for these two forces of 1,000,000 men up to and including the 6-inch howitzer class. I have not mentioned any plant necessary either for manufacturing forgings or for machining forgings into guns of the classes of the 6-inch gun and the 93-inch howitzer, nor have I mentioned plants necessary for repairing and maintaining artillery in the hands of these two forces of 1,000,000 men. These last plants for repairs and maintenance are machining plants and are expected to be established in France. For the manufacture of forg ings for the 6-inch gun and the 9-inch howitzer I hope to be able to get the two established gun-forging manufacturing plants in this country whose enlargements were the ones I first spoke about to still further enlarge their plants for this last purpose, and I hope to enlarge the machining plant at the Watervliet Arsenal to machine at least the largest size of the pieces to be assigned to organizations which I have mentioned to you; that is, the 93-inch howitzer.

Mr. SHERLEY. General, as I recall in connection with testimony had in regard to seacoast fortifications as well as mobile artillery, the arsenals of the Government are practically booked with Government orders for 18 months or more; that was some months ago. Gen. CROZIER. Yes.

Mr. SHERLEY. So that you do not look to them to carry practically any of this load?

Gen. CROZIER. Very little of it. As I am just telling you, however, I contemplate using some of the funds for enlarging the capacity of the Watervliet Arsenal, and I also have an estimate, I think under armories and arsenals, for the enlargement of the Watervliet capacity.

Mr. SHERLEY. That is the only arsenal, as I recall, where the forg ings for the big guns were made into the guns?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes.

Mr. SHERLEY. We have never made any forgings ourselves for guns of any considerable caliber?

Gen. CROZIER. No.

Mr. SHERLEY. I believe recently you had appropriations looking to the creation of a forging plant and you hoped to make some of the 6-inch guns, but had not been very successful, I believe, in getting your steel forgings?

Gen. CROZIER. That is right. We did not know whether it was due to our newness to the work or whether the steel billets, which we had to buy, were at fault.

Mr. CANNON. All of this discussion has been in reference to this item of $899,000,000?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. CANNON. What I would like to know is how much of this appropriation-whether all or a part thereof-is for the fiscal year; in other words, how much you want available for payments up to a given point, say, this fiscal year, and how much authority to make contracts you want for the next fiscal year?

Gen. CROZIER. Out of that sum of $899,000,000 I think I will not require more than three-fourths of it for this fiscal year and onefourth of it, or $225,000,000, can go in the form of contract authorization. You see, we are making an effort to get this artillery into existence, or as much of it as we can, by next summer; and, of course, if we get it into existence we must have the money to pay for it, and we are expecting to make the contracts in such a way as to have to pay for it as we go along; that is, pay for it while in the process of manufacture, and pay for the plants as soon as we get them or partially get them.

MONDAY, AUGUST 6, 1917.

AUTHORITY TO PURCHASE MACHINERY FOR OTHER PLACES THAN THE ARSENAL.

The CHAIRMAN. General, before we take up the second item on page 105 I want to ask you why you drop out the words "at the arsenals." The provision now reads, "and the machinery necessary for their manufacture at the arsenals," and you drop out the words "at the arsenals."

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir. Ye have been speaking several times of the necessity for buying machinery for use at other places than the arsenals.

The CHAIRMAN. And this is to make the appropriation available for that purpose?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; it has that effect. We are really proceeding on the belief that the appropriation is available anyway without any change of that language.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not need it, then. Was that change made in order to make it certain that the comptroller would not hold up accounts if you did buy machinery for the arsenals as a part of the manufacturing business?

Gen. CROZIER. I think for that reason it would be a good idea to make certain that he would not hold up accounts even for machinery that we purchased for use elsewhere than at the arsenals.

AMMUNITION FOR MOUNTAIN, FIELD, AND SIEGE CANNON, AND STORAGE FACILITIES.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is, "For purchase, manufacture. and test of ammunition for mountain, field, and siege cannon, including the necessary experiments in connection therewith and the machinery necessary for its manufacture, and the necessary storage facilities, $1,363,000,000." You have had for ammunition $374,000,000. to which should be added $10,000,000 for the National Guard, making $384,000,000 in all.

Gen CROZIER. If you please, Mr. Chairman, I will let Col. Hoffer make the explanation in regard to that ammunition. It is directly under his charge, and he is entirely familiar with it.

Col. HOFFER. Mr. Chairman, the estimates and appropriations to date contemplated the procurement of the initial supply of ammunition for the artillery of 1,000,000 men in accordance with standards that then existed, and, also, of the supply to meet these estimated expenditures during the first year of a war of such portions of that artillery as might get into action.

The appropriations to date under the various fortification acts and Army acts amount to about $416,000,000, which corresponds to the estimates for the ammunition to which I have referred. To meet the revision in the artillery project for 1,000,000 men, to provide the increased expenditures which our latest information gives us, and. also, to provide the initial supply of ammunition for a second 1,000,000 men, will require a sum in excess of the appropriations to date amounting to $1,358,000,000. The remaining $5,000,000 in the esti mate is to cover the cost of the rental of buildings and grounds and the construction of temporary buildings, either on Governmentowned or rented grounds, required for the storage of the various components before those components are assembled into complete rounds. The components will be manufactured at different places and will finally be assembled at another point. The quantities ordered are so great and the necessity of keeping well in advance of the output of the assembling plants is such as to render these storage facilities

necessary.

The estimated expenditures for the Artillery of the first million men are based upon those troops going to the front at the probable dates to which Gen. Crozier has referred in connection with estimates under the other headings. The entire estimates for this Artillery ammunition is submitted under the fortification bill, as the National Guard and National Army are now a part of the national forces.

The recommended changes in the wording of the appropriationfirst, the elimination of the words "at the arsenals "is for the purpose of covering, so far as the comptroller is concerned, the use. if necessary, of a portion of these funds for payment for machinery for plant extensions of private companies that may be found necessary; and, next, the addition of the words, "and the necessary storage facilities," is to give authorization for the expenditure of a portion of these funds for storage facilities for the components, it being considered that the cost of the storage of these components is a proper charge against the appropriation for the procurement of the ammunition.